God's Truth
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The Bible does not call them murders.
ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?
- Thread starter genuineoriginal
- Start date
The Bible does not call them murders.
The fact is that they committed a crime worthy of the death penalty. Mere theft is not a crime worthy of the death penalty, as per Moses.
They may have committed theft, which would make them thieves, but the greater punishment, the death penalty, was applied because during their theft, they committed a crime that deserves the death penalty, which escalates their status from thieves to robbers.
I believe Clete pointed out earlier that the same word is used in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, which describes theives who leave people for dead after ambusing them and taking their belongings.
It is possible (if not likely) that the criminals on the crosses next to Jesus were the same sort.
Robbing someone is theft, but robbing someone and then leaving them for dead is murder/attempted murder, in addition to being theft, which makes it a capital crime, as opposed to being just a crime which only requires restitution.
In other words, you have no leg to stand on to say that they were NOT murderers, and have yet to provide even a barely sufficient argument as to why they were not, but I have evidence that says it is possible that they were, if only due to the fact that they were being, as the one criminal admitted, justly punished by being put to death for their crime, but also because of the fact that the same word is used to describe the criminals in the above mentioned parable.
In other words, "thieves" works, though it doesn't tell the whole story, "robbers" is a better fit, and is associated with people who ambush people for their goods and property, and then leave them for dead.
Question for you, GT: Why do you refuse to acknowledge that while learning what the Bible says in English is good for the basics, learning what the original languages said helps to provide a deeper understanding of what the text says?
lifeisgood
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Yes, you must REFUSE water baptism FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS; otherwise, you are saying that Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary was NOT enough to SAVE you.
Now as as SIGN that you are ALREADY saved, then you can be water baptized, however, NOT for the remission of sins. It has never been for the remission of sins. It has ALWAYS been as a SIGN that the sins had ALREADY been remitted.
If you are dunked in water for the remission of sins, you will come out wet, but you will have NOT have received remission of your sins for WATER does NOT save anyone and has NEVER saved anyone. Or do you believe that Jesus was dunked in water for the remission of his sins? (Jesus HAD NO SIN. Period!) So, Jesus was water baptized as a SIGN for the JEWS. Today, AFTER the Lord saves us, we are water baptized as a SIGN that something has happened in our lives (The Lord has saved us).
Faith and trust EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary saves ABSOLUTELY.
Cornelius and his household (Acts 10) clearly shows this. OBSERVE that Peter did NOT say: 'Now, let's proceed to baptize them in water now that they have ALREADY received the Holy Spirit FOR THE REMISSION OF their SINS'. They were BAPTIZED in WATER because the Lord HAD ALREADY saved them as a SIGN of their salvation and Peter UNDERSTOOD this.
We are baptized in water AFTER we make a PROFESSION of faith, EXACTLY as then. Water baptism is a SIGN. If you believe is NOT just a SIGN, then you are saying that Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary was NOT sufficient to save anyone and water baptism has to be added to His already finished work on the Cross of Calvary, which is a no no.
People do get baptized in water as a SIGN that they are SAVED by their belief and trust and confession that EXCLUSIVELY Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary saves to the uttermost. Anything else is sinking sand.
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God's Truth
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That has nothing to do with the fact the two were NOT called 'murderers'.
If they had been murderers then the Bible would have said so.
Clete attacked me for saying Moses didn't kill someone in the same way that David had someone murdered, yet he said something completely untrue that the Bible does not say at all. He said one of the others being crucified was a "murderer". The Bible does not call him a murderer.
You are going against me for saying what the Bible says. If the robbers would have been murderers then the scripture would have called them murderers and not robbers.
Because God brings His message to us in our language and He doesn't say more understanding or deeper understanding comes from learning the language it was first written. God tells us where understanding comes from and it isn't that way. I have also noticed many people who have false beliefs will use Greek to try to defend themselves.
They were, however, called "robbers" and were being put to death for their crime. Theft is not a capital crime, which means they were thieves AND one (or more) of the following: murderers (or attempted murderers), rapists (or attempted rapists), adulterers (or attempted adulterers).
Which one of those types of criminals were they most likely to be, given the wording that is used, the same wording that is used by none other than Jesus Himself to describe people who leave people for dead after ambushing and stealing from them?
Pounding the podium and repeating that they weren't called murderers means nothing when it's heavily implied that at the very least they were violent criminals who liked to steal, and in this case, they had done something worthy of the death penalty.
This is an argument from silence, a logical fallacy.
The one criminal admitted their punishment, the death penalty, was just, that they deserved what they were getting. Which means that, at the very least, theft was not the only crime they committed, because theft does not justify the death penalty.
GT, would you at the very least be willing to admit that theft was not the only crime that the criminals on the crosses next to Jesus had committed?
Robbers were violent criminals, often taking what they wanted by force, as described in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, often leaving people for dead.
If the person whom they attacked died as a result of their attack, they could justly be called murderers. And even if the person did not die, they would still be attempted murderers, and would justly receive the death penalty for doing what they did.
In other words, by calling them "robbers," it's is highly likely, even if not outright stated, that they were murderers, or attempted murderers, both crimes of which deserve the death penalty.
Again, argument from silence.
This is false.
Yes, God's word has been brought to us in English. But the Bible wasn't originally written in English. It was written in Hebrew, Greek, and small amounts of Aramaic.
The men God used to write the Bible didn't know what English was, let alone speak it.
So what?
The fact is, people can and do gain deeper understanding by studying what was written in Hebrew and Greek, understanding which you completely refuse to acknowledge because you're scared it will destroy your position.
He tells us that "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter." (Proverbs 25:2)
You, GT, have drawn a line in the sand where the english translation stops and the Hebrew and Greek begins, and have said, "I will search no further than this for what God has concealed.
And then you wonder why people call you out on what you believe, because you don't have the understanding that they do.
Because you say they're false?
So?
Are you then asserting that everyone who uses the Hebrew and the Greek to defend their beliefs, their beliefs are thus false because of it?
genuineoriginal
New member
And none of your citations of scripture shows that God is the one who demands sinless perfection.
That means your argument ends up just being something you believe without any scriptural support.
Good luck with that.
genuineoriginal
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The scriptures show David did both of those things, and yet God still said that David was a man after His own heart.
God's Truth
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That isn't what is being debated.
However, since you want to make that statement, allow me to say that the Bible says David did everything right EXCEPT for the case of Uriah.
1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
David HAD TO BEG AND REPENT to be forgiven.
Read Psalm 51.
God's Truth
New member
No repenting then no forgiveness.
No repenting no forgiveness and no perfection by the Lord.
No repenting no forgiveness and no perfection by the Lord.
Practically the entire Bible shows that God will accept no less than sinless perfection.
In order for an Israelite to be considered righteous, he had to keep the law perfectly, and when he inevitably failed, he had to purify himself with the cleansing laws.
Jesus is the Bread of Life (John 6:35), and Paul says (Galatians 5:9) a little leaven (the stuff that causes bread to rise, which is likened to sin) leavens the whole lump (talking about dough that's used to make bread, talking about the body).
God is perfect. He cannot allow imperfection to last indefinitely, which is why He sent His Son to die on the cross to save us. The standard for righteousness is righteousness. Any less, and it's not righteous. There's not different levels of righteousness, and Paul makes that clear: For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). What is the glory of God? Perfection, righteousness, justice, love, etc...
In other words, saying God does NOT require perfection is not only false, but an insult to God, because He IS Perfect.
Liar.
How do you people forget that the entire thread and everything I've said in it is still here for anyone to read?
Just utter stupidity!
Actually this does not make sense.
Paul used to drag Followers of Christ. Paul was a Good Jew until he gave it all up to become popular.
The Jews did not trust Paul because they saw him a self appointed, messiah.
His doctrine did not match what they had been told by God and the Prophets.
They KNEW this as they were instructed in what God and the Prophets had said, so Paul went to the Gentiles who had not heard of God or the Prophets.
As Paul wiped his feet to the Jews, the Apostles were making converts daily.
God's Truth
New member
You don't know the scriptures. I can help.
SO help me.
I am pretty good on what the Scriptures Say.
You are here to help.
HELP.
God's Truth
New member
So you are a Paul hater, correct? You don't think the Bible has all truthful apostles and scriptures, correct?
You have to ask God to forgive you through Jesus Christ and repent of your ignorance.
You said you were going to HELP me on what the Scriptures SAY.
You seem to be expressing an opinion of what the SCRIPTURES Say, as to compared to what they actually SAY.
Let us put up Scriptures, and let those Scriptures Express themselves as to what they say.
You are one that,
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
I know you are one that does this, I still will bring to you the Lord Jesus Christ.
Turns out My God, IS God.
Have you heard of Jesus?
Jesus is NOTHING without Paul making followers of him, Correct?
Jesus is my lawyer take it up with him, as you dispute, my case.
To Hell?
Actually yes, you get like 3 chances, God is long suffering, how many chances did God give the Hebrews?
That is an actual QUESTION?
How many chances did God give the Hebrews?
Actually yes, you get like 3 chances, God is long suffering, how many chances did God give the Hebrews?
That is an actual QUESTION?
How many chances did God give the Hebrews?
Jesus was CONFUSED when he said this,
Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.