Are you suggesting that Jesus had a physical body before He created the physical universe? before he "became flesh"?
ECT The Calvinist 5 Solas
- Thread starter Nang
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
Are you suggesting the Son of God was without His glorified body in eternity?
Scripture says he "became flesh and tabernacled among us."
Are you suggesting contrariwise?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Of course not.
The incarnation of the Son of God; manifested in the Man, Jesus, reveals through His earthly death of flesh, to be the necessary means to and godly covenant of, a bodily resurrection to glory of all those gifted with faith in Him. Hebrews 10:5-14
See, here's where your problem is, Nang.
"Become" (in any tense, in any language) is a CHANGE word.
Meaning it contradicts "immutability" by definition.
Jesus, God the Son, the Logos, BECAME flesh.
Meaning he changed. Therefore, by definition, he cannot be immutable.
In other words, EITHER THIS:
Is wrong (which means that you need to re-evaluate what you believe and why).
OR
Jesus, God the Son, the Logos, DID NOT become flesh, and the Bible is wrong, and therefore God made a mistake when writing the Bible.
And we all know what the Bible says about that...
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” - Romans 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:4&version=NKJV
Which means the only option for you, Nang, is to reject that Jesus is immutable.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Paul in Galatians 4:4 interprets the word "became" (not "become" in John 1:14A) as being "sent forth."
Another help in studying the attribute of immutability is a careful word-study of the biblical word "manifest" and "manifested."
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Never . . .
Uh...? Huh?
What?
Paul "interprets" the word? Did you forget that Paul never had the book of John to read from?
What are you even talking about?
Jesus BECAME flesh, yes or no?
"Became" is a change, yes or no?
To address your attempted point, was Jesus sent ONCE? Or was He ALWAYS being sent, according to your immutability doctrine?
If he was always being sent, it contradicts the Bible, because the Bible says Jesus was sent ONCE to die. That means ONCE, Nang. Not always being sent. Sent. ONCE.
Again, you are left with the option of either rejecting immutability as false doctrine because it contradicts Scripture, or you reject Scripture and call God a liar in favor of your holy doctrine of immutability. :vomit:
Choose.
To manifest is to change from not manifested to manifested.
Which again, shows Christ IS NOT IMMUTABLE.
Or the Bible is false, and Nang is correct, so let's just rip any verses out of scripture that show God changing in any way.
Right, you're so attached to your doctrine that you trample over scripture to make your doctrine true.
Jesus spoke about people like you, Nang.
Allow me to paraphrase, for a moment.
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?For God said, ‘Jesus became flesh’; and, ‘Christ was manifest in the flesh.’But you say, ‘Christ is immutable’ Thus you have made the Scriptures of God of no effect by your tradition.Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
I am using your own words, Nang! Your very own words!
"Only God the Son became flesh and died and resurrected to glory." - Nang
God was not always flesh! God was not always a human being. God was not always dead and He had never before been resurrected never to die again!
Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Now having read those two verses...
Did the Alpha and Omega die, Nang?
Is the Alpha and Omega dead now?
Has the Alpha and Omega always been dead?
Is being dead and being alive the same thing?
Explain it to us Nang! If I'm such a big liar and am totally misrepresenting what Calvinism teaches, then explain to us all how the Calvinist doctrine of immutability isn't destroyed entirely by the very gospel itself and the very words that came straight out of the risen and glorified Jesus Christ's very own mouth as quoted above.
Clete
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Jesus Christ overcame death and is risen. You are correct. These words were spoken by Jesus Christ in His eternal state.
Is He bodyless in glory? Was not His resurrection a bodily resurrection?
If Jesus Christ possesses a glorified body now, He has always possessed it, for eternity is forever and is not a matter of time as we know it.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This is a denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Nang's double talk, where she tries to ride the fense between immutability and accepting the truth of the gospel, reminds me of a terrific book that I found recently online. I've been reading through it and it reads like I wrote it myself! That's not to say that I could have done as good a job of writing the book as the author has done but merely that his use of logic and many of the phrases he uses are very similar to the things I've said for years on this website and elsewhere.
There is a chapter of the book called "Calvinists Deny the Charge" and goes into some detail about how they quite arbitrarily and entirely intentionally disregard the contradictions inherent in their doctrine.
If the copy rights weren't fully reserved, I'd quote the whole book on this web forum!
Check it out here...
Is God the Author of Sin?
There is a chapter of the book called "Calvinists Deny the Charge" and goes into some detail about how they quite arbitrarily and entirely intentionally disregard the contradictions inherent in their doctrine.
If the copy rights weren't fully reserved, I'd quote the whole book on this web forum!
Check it out here...
Is God the Author of Sin?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Jesus remained immutable and divine, even in His flesh. He lost none of His godly attributes. He remained God even while manifested as Man.
No it isn't! Where in the bible (sola scriptura!) is immutability as Calvinists understand the term used as a requisite attribute of divinity?
Where?
Nowhere! That's where! It isn't in there! It's all over the place in pagan Greek philosophy but it isn't anywhere in the bible whatsoever!
This is your doctrine but is not biblical nor is it even rational and it certainly does not respond to the point!
There is nothing in the bible that even suggests that God the Son always had a body nevermind that He was always a human being conceived in a woman's womb who then was tempted yet without sin!
No one is suggesting that Jesus stopped being God. On the cotrary, the gospel doesn't work unless it was the Creator God Himself who died on that cross and rose from the dead as Jesus Himself explicitly states happened!
Clete
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Who walked in the garden with A&E?
The manifestations and events of Christ's earthly life and death were temporal in order to reveal His righteous achievement and standing in eternal glory and Godly purpose.
So you believe Triune God died on the cross? What about the Son of Man, Jesus? Whose blood was shed from whose flesh?
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