Yes, thank you for the correction.
ECT What is the Firmament in Genesis 1?
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
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genuineoriginal
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According to scripture, that will eventually be the place called "earth" but Genesis 1 shows a distinct difference between "earth" and "heaven".
Until the events of Revelation 21, the abode of God is in the sky (heaven).
It doesn't make sense to a modern person who is trying to interpret everything through modern knowledge.
But, Genesis was not written to an audience of 21st Century American Christians, it was written to a nation of middle easterners during the bronze age.
Nope, but Stripe seems to be forgetting that.
The only way the two of you would assume that the word "heaven" in Genesis 1:8 refers to "God's abode" is if you take the modern meanings and retrofit them into the verse instead of accepting what the words meant when written.
Genesis 1:8 CJB 8 and God called the dome Sky. So there was evening, and there was morning, a second day. |
The way the word is used in Genesis 1 shows that the word "heaven" cannot possibly mean "God's abode" in the creation story.
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genuineoriginal
New member
Actually, there is not more to it than just "the sky".
Genesis 1:8 EXB 8 God ·named [called] the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] “·sky [heaven].” Evening passed, and morning came [1:5]. This was the second day. |
Genesis 1 is about God creating things and giving them names.
I thought it would be obvious.
| The Firmament of Genesis 1 is Solid but That’s Not the Point One of those issue concerns the second day of creation (Genesis 1:6-8), where God made the “expanse” or the “firmament.” The Hebrew word for this is raqia (pronounced ra-KEE-ah). Biblical scholars understand the raqia to be a solid dome-like structure. It separates the water into two parts, so that there is water above the raqia and water below it (v. 7). The waters above are kept at bay so the world can become inhabitable. On the third day (vv. 9-10), the water below the raqia is “gathered to one place” to form the sea and allow the dry land to appear. Ancient Israelites “saw” this barrier when they looked up. There were no telescopes, space exploration, or means of testing the atmosphere. They relied on what their senses told them. Even today, looking up at a clear sky in open country, the sky seems to “begin” at the horizons and reaches up far above. Ancient Israelites and others in that part of the world assumed the world was flat, and so it looked like the earth is covered by a dome, and the “blue sky” is the “water above” held back by the raqia. |
Yes, the source kgov is incorrect, or at least, misinformed.
I am relying on these verses to show how to interpret it.
Genesis 1:5/8/10 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. |
Those verses show a one to one relationship between two things.
Light = Day
Darkness = Night
Firmament (dome)(air) = Heaven (sky)
Dry Land = Earth
Waters = Seas
Not quite, you are letting what you have been taught lead you into specific interpretations of scripture that you are using to form a conclusion, which is circular reasoning.
A prime example is (paraphrased) "Heaven is where God lives, therefore heaven means where God lives".
I never said that word, but a source I quoted inside a box used the word. :idunno:
And?
I hate to make this kind of comment, but you're being a hypocrite:
"The only way you would assume the word "heaven" in Genesis 1:8 refers only to the sky is if you only take the traditional meanings and apply them to the verse instead of accepting what the words meant when written and still mean.
|
Something else you seem to have missed...
GO, on how many days did God see that what He had made was "good" or "very good"? Was it at the end of each day?
Saying it doesn't make it so, GO.
Not only is it possible, I even explained to you how it is:
| I can't say whether the translators did their job perfectly, and that that's exactly what "Heaven" was referring to, but I'm certainly willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it means "God's abode." And even if not that, one needs to remember that verse 8, and the rest of Genesis 1, for that matter, is describing the earth BEFORE the Fall of Man, not after, and that the earth would have been a place suitable for God, a paradise, if you will. Literally what we would imagine "Heaven on Earth" to be like. I'd also like to point out that before the Fall, God walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve, which means He was there in some way, more specifically than calling the universe God's abode, because God is omnipresent (and by this I don't mean the classical greek meaning of the word, but rather that God can be anywhere He wants to be, even in multiple places at once). |
genuineoriginal
New member
Right back at you.
You are willing to give the translators the benefit of the doubt by assuming that they are using a more modern meaning than the original meanings of the words?
How very gracious of you.
I am willing to give God the benefit of the doubt by assuming that when God called the air "Sky" He knew what He was doing.
Of course, understanding that the "firmament" means "air" and "heaven" means "sky" is the only way to explain how the birds were flying around in the "air of the sky".
Genesis 1:20 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. |
It is not being a hypocrite when I stick to the meaning that God explicitly gave to the word.
Genesis 1:8 NIV 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. |
Not seeing it.
genuineoriginal
New member
You think God lived in the sky before there was any sky?
He created a firmament that separated water from water and called it Heaven.
Not sure what your challenge is here.
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes, God created the sky (heaven) by creating an expanse of air.
Since God did not live in the sky before He created the sky, the word "heaven" cannot possibly mean "God's abode" in the creation story.
The word "heaven" only acquired the meaning "God's abode" after mankind started believing that God lived in the sky.
Question begging.
No, he created a firmament in the midst of the waters, dividing the waters above from the waters below.
It does not say "expanse of air."
It says raqia, which means, in addition to the arch of the sky, "something pounded out," or, "an expanse."
It says "in the midst of the waters." The word "midst" in the hebrew comes from an unused root that literally means "to divide in half."
Did you notice Genesis 1:2?
From 1:1 to verse 10, the word "waters" is used.
GO, where was the Spirit of God in verse 2?
Over the WATERS.
Where did God create the firmament?
In the midst of the, you guessed it, WATERS.
What did the firmament divide?
Yup. The WATERS.
It divided the WATERS in half.
God then called that firmament Heaven.
Until that point, the only word used is firmament.
Not once before that point does Moses use a modifier phrase with it. In fact, it's not until verse 14, on DAY 4, that God turns His attention towards, yup, "the firmament of the heavens."
Clearly delineated from simply "the firmament."
In fact, Moses doesn't use "the firmament" anymore except with the phrase "of the Heavens" throughout the rest of the chapter.
Why make the distinction so many times if there's no difference between the two?
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:2&version=NKJV
God was IN the sky before He created the firmament.
Saying it doesn't make it so, and you have been shown how it IS possible.
And when did God start living in the sky? Before or after He lived on Earth with Adam and Eve?
From gotquestions.org
The “firmament” (from the Latin firmamentum, meaning “sky” or “expanse”) is mentioned 17 times in the King James Version of the Bible and refers to the expanse of the heavens above the earth.
Nine of the occurrences of firmament are in the first chapter of the Bible as part of the creation account. Genesis 1:6-8 says, “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.” The “firmament” is called “heaven”; i.e., it is what people see when they stand outside and look up. It is the space which includes the earth’s atmosphere and the celestial realm. In the firmament, we see the sun, moon, and stars; in modern translations the firmament is often called the “expanse” or the “sky.”
Genesis says that the firmament “separated the water under the expanse from the water above it” (Genesis 1:7). Originally, God created the earth with water “under” the sky (terrestrial and subterranean water) and water “above” the sky—possibly a “water canopy” which enwrapped the earth in a protective layer. Or, the waters above the firmament could simply be a reference to clouds.
We find firmament used again in Psalms: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork” (Psalm 19:1). Also, in Psalm 150:1, “Praise ye the LORD. . . . Praise him in the firmament of his power.”
Firmament is used in only two other books of the Bible: Ezekiel (five times) and Daniel (once). In Ezekiel, each occurrence takes place within a vision. For example, “Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne” (Ezekiel 10:1).
Daniel 12:3 says, “And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”
In short, the “firmament” is a vast expanse, specifically the atmosphere or sky. The word is found only in the King James Version and other older translations of the Bible.
The “firmament” (from the Latin firmamentum, meaning “sky” or “expanse”) is mentioned 17 times in the King James Version of the Bible and refers to the expanse of the heavens above the earth.
Nine of the occurrences of firmament are in the first chapter of the Bible as part of the creation account. Genesis 1:6-8 says, “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.” The “firmament” is called “heaven”; i.e., it is what people see when they stand outside and look up. It is the space which includes the earth’s atmosphere and the celestial realm. In the firmament, we see the sun, moon, and stars; in modern translations the firmament is often called the “expanse” or the “sky.”
Genesis says that the firmament “separated the water under the expanse from the water above it” (Genesis 1:7). Originally, God created the earth with water “under” the sky (terrestrial and subterranean water) and water “above” the sky—possibly a “water canopy” which enwrapped the earth in a protective layer. Or, the waters above the firmament could simply be a reference to clouds.
We find firmament used again in Psalms: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork” (Psalm 19:1). Also, in Psalm 150:1, “Praise ye the LORD. . . . Praise him in the firmament of his power.”
Firmament is used in only two other books of the Bible: Ezekiel (five times) and Daniel (once). In Ezekiel, each occurrence takes place within a vision. For example, “Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne” (Ezekiel 10:1).
Daniel 12:3 says, “And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”
In short, the “firmament” is a vast expanse, specifically the atmosphere or sky. The word is found only in the King James Version and other older translations of the Bible.
If "firmament" ONLY meant the sky/space/heavens, then why did Moses, the first 5 times that he used the word in Genesis 1, NOT clarify it, then the remaining 4 times, use the clarifying phrase "of the heavens"?
There's no reason other than he's trying to distinguish the two grammatically.
genuineoriginal
New member
Using the correct synonyms for a word is not question begging.
| Synonyms for sky azure empyrean firmament heavens lid vault welkin celestial sphere the blue upper atmosphere vault of heaven wild blue yonder |
It does say that the birds fly above the earth in the firmament, which is the air above the earth.
Genesis 1:20 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. |
Genesis 1:20 EXB 20 Then God said, “Let the water ·be filled with living things [L swarm with living creatures], and let birds fly in the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] above the earth.” |
You seem to be taking a side comment (as if beaten out) from Brown-Driver-Briggs and using it for the primary definition.
You might as well concentrate on the other side comment (as if of ice) and start claiming that the firmament is made of ice.
| רָקִיעַ noun masculine Genesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 στερέωμα, ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; — 1 (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַח), as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22) 2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַם), ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). **רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳י). |
Yes, God called the firmament "Sky", therefore the firmament is the sky.
You seem to be skipping some important verses.
Genesis 1:8-10 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. |
God said that the name of the firmament was "Sky" (שָׁמַיִם shamayim).
God said that the name of the dry land that was under that same firmament (sky) was "Earth" (אֶרֶץ 'erets).
God said that the name of the waters that were under that same firmament (sky) was "Seas" (יָם yam).
Therefore: any attempt to change "Earth" to mean "firmament" (or vise versa) is fraudulent.
God never lived in the sky, but mankind started believing that God lived in the sky fairly soon after Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden.
genuineoriginal
New member
It is only referring to what we see above the earth.
genuineoriginal
New member
The word "firmament" (dome, expanse, air) is explicitly stated to be equal to "heaven" (sky).
Genesis 1:8 EXB 8 God ·named [called] the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] “·sky [heaven].” Evening passed, and morning came [1:5]. This was the second day. |
There is no reason to assume it means anything else in the Genesis account.
You're right.
It's not question begging. I was wrong on that.
It's special pleading.
| Special pleading: argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view |
Using modern words to support your position on what a word meant in ancient times doesn't help your position in the slightest. I am well aware that today, and traditionally, the word "heaven" means the sky.
However, the argument I am making is that there is a specific reason that moses used "firmament" without a clarifying phrase, and then suddenly starts using "of the heavens" after "firmament."
There is no reason to do this unless you are specifying that the word you are using is referring to something other than what you were initially referring to.
What it says is that the birds fly across the firmament of the heavens. Not just the firmament.
Even though it says it plainly, you still miss it.
"Firmament of heaven."
Not just "firmament."
Why did Moses include a clarifying phrase in only the last four of his uses of firmament, GO?
Well, no. This is, again, special pleading.
I'm not. And the fact that it even mentions "as if beaten out" lends credibility to my position, no matter how much you want to ignore it.
You missed it:
| Raqia is the noun from the verb raqa meaning being hammered or spread out, as in working metal into a thin sheet or plate. "They beat (raqa) the gold into thin sheets" (Exodus 39:3). "The goldsmith overspreads (raqa) it with gold" (Isaiah 40:19; i.e., gold-plated). |
kgov.com/firmament
This is special pleading, again.
You're ignoring the fact that the word used also means "heaven," and not just "sky."
Special pleading.
The word also means "heaven."
"Under the heavens" is referring to the sky, just like "firmament of the heavens" is referring to the sky.
However, to then say that EVERY use of "heaven/heavens" refers to the sky is fallacious.
This part I agree with.
No argument here, see clarification above.
I'm not trying to change what "firmament" means.
I'm trying to get you to see the difference between the two firmaments that are present in Genesis 1, because there are two of them:
There is the [firmament called "Heaven"]. This is used the first 5 times
There is the [firmament of the heavens]. This is used the last 4 times.
The first "firmament" is used without a qualifier phrase, and it refers to the crust of the earth.
The second "firmament" is used with the qualifier phrase "of the heavens," and refers to the sky.
You didn't answer the question that I asked.
Why did Moses use simply "firmament" 5 times in a row, then suddenly switch to using "firmament" with a qualifier phrase, "of the heavens"?
"The trunk is five feet wide."
"The trunk holds lots of groceries."
"The trunk has emergency supplies in it."
"The trunk also holds the spare tire."
"The trunk is at the back of the vehicle."
"The trunk of the elephant is 4 feet long."
"The trunk of the elephant is grey."
"The trunk of the elephant . . ."
etc.
See what I'm getting at?
genuineoriginal
New member
So, you are admitting that you are using special pleading to ignore the traditional meaning and impose a meaning that is in opposition to the plainly understood meaning of the verses?
:rotfl:
Posts like this will get you an infraction.
Don't be a troll, GO. We're having good discussion here. Don't ruin it.
The accusation of special pleading is against you, for ignoring the other meanings of "heaven" and "firmament" (raqia).
I have not and do not and will not deny that heaven and firmament both have multiple meanings.
What I WILL deny is that it ONLY has the traditional meanings that you are bringing forth as a defense of your argument, when there are MORE meaning in addition to what you bring forth.
In other words, the only one who could POSSIBLY be special pleading here is you.
Address the points made, GO, and don't be making snarky comments like the one you just made.
genuineoriginal
New member
The meaning of the words do not change because you don't understand the reason why Moses used them.
Genesis 1:20 CJB 20 God said, “Let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open dome of the sky.” |
You are claiming that there is no reason for Moses to have stated, "birds fly above the earth in the open dome of the sky," instead of merely saying, "birds fly above the earth in the open dome."
To me, there seems to be a very valid reason to say, "birds fly in the open dome of the sky," instead of saying, "birds fly in the open dome."
What open dome?
The open dome of the sky, that open dome.
Right back at you. :thumb:
Not at all.
Accepting the vast majority of opinion of the translators and commentators throughout history is not "special" pleading.
Twisting the word רָקִיעַ to mean something new and contrary to the context it is found in because of an unprovable scientific theory is "special" pleading.
Actually, it doesn't do a thing for lending credibility to your position, since your position is that the expanse is the earth and not the sky.
It appears as if you believe that רָקִיעַ raqiya` (expanse) is formed from the word רָקַע raqa` (beaten).
In that logic people were spreading out gold into a thin sheet before any people saw the sky spread out overhead.
Maybe your source is completely illogical?
You are ignoring that "heaven" and "sky" mean the same thing.
All uses of רָקִיעַ raqiya` "firmament" in the Bible are referring to the same thing: the sky overhead.
Ezekiel 1:22 22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. |