ECT We Don't Hear Much From Today's Prophecy Teachers, Why Do You Think That Is?

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a large distance (for me) between Matthew 13 and 24 else we'd have to 'persevere to the end.'

That makes no sense. Do you think that when the Lord spoke about what would happen at the "end of the age" at Matthew 13 is not the same "end of the age" about which He wasasked about at Matthew 24:3?

 

[Lon]

It was the "gospel of grace" that went to all the world and not the "gospel of the kingdom":

"The word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth" (Col 1:5,6).​

The Apostle Paul was given a ministry to the Jews and one to the Gentiles and in the following verse the Lord speaks about those two ministries:

"But the Lord said to Ananias, 'Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel" (Acts 9:15).​

In the following passage Paul speaks specifically about those two ministries:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:24-25; KJV).​

The preaching of the "kingdom of God" was the same exact "gospel" which the Twelve preached to the Jews in the following passage:

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick...And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9:1-2,6; KJV).​

The facts reveal that when they were preaching that gospel the Twelve were not even aware the the Lord Jesus was going to die. After being given that command and after preaching that gospel the transgiguration followed (Lk.9:29-36; Mk.9:2-13). Then after the Twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom and after the transfiguration we read the following exchange between the Lord Jesus and the Twelve:

"They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.' But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it" (Mk.9:30-32).​

The facts reveal that the Twelve did not even know He was going to die as late as shortly before the Cross:

"Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.' The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about" (Lk.18:31-34).​

These facts prove conclusively that the gospel which the Twelve were preaching at Luke 9:6 was not the same gospel which Paul referred to in the following way:

"For the message of the cross, is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor.1:18.).​

The "gospel of the grace of God" cannot be preached apart from the fact that believers are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb (1 Pet.18-19) and that is exactly the same "redemption" Paul speaks about when declaring the "gospel of the grace of God," that believers "are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

This to me, simply puts the fulfillment of Matthew 24 at a later date after the Lord Jesus Christ's death, not that he wasn't talking to His disciples directly about persevering to the end. The warnings, would be hard for grace message of salvation. The Lord Jesus Christ wasn't talking about 'us' in such context. It was the job of the 12 to press on because all but John (and Judas) died as martyrs (not trying to disagree, just explain that it can still fit within MAD frame-work so far as I see Matthew 24's fulfillment). In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

That makes no sense. Do you think that when the Lord spoke about what would happen at the "end of the age" at Matthew 13 is not the same "end of the age" about which He wasasked about at Matthew 24:3?

Let me give my understanding:

Matthew 13:30,41-43,49-50; is a parable end tying into the judgement of all men. I'm not seeing 'end of age' here, but certainly 'end of the earth.'

Compare to Matthew 24:9 where the 'end of their age' is persecution culminating in verse 13. Even as you say, that this 'gospel' is the kingdom message Matthew 24:14. I also see the 'abomination' as needing to be in the temple Daniel 9:27,11:31;12:11

Matthew 24:16 seems to me, to make certain it is these disciples because Judea is mentioned, specifically, to flee to the hills.

He wraps this part up in Matthew 24:25 and so, as I said, I can and do see future in the verses after this. There is no definitive closure until the Son of Man comes Matthew 24:29

I simply see immediate fulfillment for the disciples when I get to verse 25. After? I cannot be certain nor definitive.

-Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Let me give my understanding:

Matthew 13:30,41-43,49-50; is a parable end tying into the judgement of all men. I'm not seeing 'end of age' here, but certainly 'end of the earth.'

Compare to Matthew 24:9 where the 'end of their age' is persecution culminating in verse 13. Even as you say, that this 'gospel' is the kingdom message Matthew 24:14. I also see the 'abomination' as needing to be in the temple Daniel 9:27,11:31;12:11

Lon, the Greek word translated "age" at Matthew 24:3 is the same exact Greek word used by the Lord Jesus at Matthew 13:39.

 

[iamaberean]

Then are you post-millennial, or amillennial? (I do tend to agree with your interpretation on this).

All prophecy has been fulfilled except God coming to set up his kingdom here on earth. At that time all the wicked will be taken and burned.
Mat 13:24-30

Here is why I'm a bit hard to pin down. For me, this certainly can be talking about the end Revelation 21:1

Rev 21 is still speaking of the time God comes to rule here on earth.

This is going to happen just before the children of the Devil take total control over this earth. Right now they probably control 90% of earth. I am talking about real people that are children of the wicked. Just as they were in control of Israel when Jesus came and walked here.

King Herod was of the wicked, Scribes and Pharisees were of the wicked one. Jesus said:
John 8:39-47 tells the story but here is the one I speak of:
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one,

 

[Lon]

Lon, the Greek word translated "age" at Matthew 24:3 is the same exact Greek word used by the Lord Jesus at Matthew 13:39.

I'm not contesting that. What I'm saying is that there is an immediate persecution described with '...and then the end...' which comes after more events. I'm rather not seeing that the time-line is expressed in immediacy if you follow: The disciples were persecuted, to death. The Lord did tell them this was coming. There was persecution in Judea. So, what I'm seeing is 1) Immediate prophecy fulfilled and 2) the Lord's return after even more events take place. As I understand it, the Lord answered both their spoken question regarding the 'end times' but also discussed their immediate persecution as 'birth pangs' for the end times. I do believe we are in the end times, along with you (I'm assuming). I am just seeing parts of what Jesus said completed, not the whole picture. In Him -Lon

 

[iamaberean]

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This will be when he comes for the last time.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[iamaberean]

A thousand, apposed to one thousand, is there a difference? Yes!

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Greek word for thousand is:

chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

Uncertain number when it is not qualified by a another number, such as one thousand. So in the scripture above 'one day' can mean thousands of years. For example:

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Does God only own the cattle on one thousand hills? No, he owns all the cattle on all the hills.

Now we will use this truth for length of a day.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So on and so forth until we get to the seventh day. No where does it say "And the evening and morning were the seventh day". We are still living in the seventh day and so far that is over six thousand of man's years. Not a day yet for the LORD.
The time of a day of creation in Gen 1 is not in hours, but it is in years. Mankind was created in day 6 and they were told to replenish the earth. They surely did that, but not in 24 hours.

LORD God formed, not created, Adam and Eve in the seventh day, which we are still in, and put them in a field with the domestic animals which God also formed in the seventh day.

 

[iamaberean]

A little more detail to the above.

Words used in scripture will point out changes of the meanings.

As an example that has already come about. 'thousand' is an unknown amount, but if it is qualified to read "one thousand" or "a thousand and forty" then it is 1000.

Now let's look at the words 'God' and 'created'. A Hebrew scholar pointed out that 'there are many gods (angels) but only one Lord God, the almighty. In Gen 1, God created man, male and female he created them. In Gen 2, LORD God 'formed' man from the dust.

What is the difference?

'God' created in Gen 1, we know only God can create something, so in Gen 2 LORD God is the same God except He is call "LORD God". The difference is, LORD (Jehovah) God is always referring to be the God that is the convent God of Israel.

'Created' is a first time thing, so formed is used for the second man. In Gen 1 adam is translated as man and in Gen 2 Adam is the name of a man that LORD God formed and made a covenant with. Eve was formed from Adams rib, a little later.

Also, animals in Gen 1 were created and in Gen 2 the animals of the field (farm land) were formed.

In God's book, how words are used is very important as to the meaning.

 

[iamaberean]

Over the next few days, let's look at correct interpretation of scripture.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God has always been, so the beginning of something is what Gen 1 speaks. The correct translation is:

In a beginning God HAD CREATED the heavens and the earth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Over the next few days, let's look at correct interpretation of scripture.

You're not off to a very good start.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven

The word is plural, not singular.

"heavens"

and the earth.

God has always been, so the beginning of something is what Gen 1 speaks. The correct translation is:

In a beginning God HAD CREATED the heavens and the earth.

Nope.

"Bara" is a 3rd person masculine single qal perfect verb.

In short, Genesis 1:1 reads:

[In the beginning] [Elohim (plural noun)] [He created (singular verb)] [the heavens] [and] [the earth]

Not "had created."

Your attempt at retranslating the Bible is incorrect. You should stop now and study more before continuing.

 

[iamaberean]

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Correct translation:
And the earth had become waste and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Correct translation:
And the earth had become waste and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nope.

Once again, the verb is correctly translated as "was" and not "had become."

Why?

Because hayatah is another qal perfect verb.

"was"

Like I said. You should stop now and study up before continuing, or you're going to continue being wrong.

 

[Poly]

We don't hear much from today's prophecy teachers, why do you think that is?

They all died of old age?

 

[JudgeRightly]

They all died of old age?

:chuckle:

 

[iamaberean]

Nope.

Once again, the verb is correctly translated as "was" and not "had become."

Why?

Because hayatah is another qal perfect verb.

"was"

Like I said. You should stop now and study up before continuing, or you're going to continue being wrong.

From another source:

The perfect mood indicates a completed ACTION. Just “being” is not an action. “Becoming” is an action.

In light of all this, I submit that a better translation of Genesis 1:1 & 2 is:

Genesis 1:1 In a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth became an empty waste; and darkness upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[JudgeRightly]

From another source:

The perfect mood indicates a completed ACTION. Just “being” is not an action. “Becoming” is an action.

In light of all this, I submit that a better translation of Genesis 1:1 & 2 is:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth became an empty waste; and darkness upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You missed it:

Hayatah is a qal perfect verb.

"was"

Morphology: V-Qal-Perf-3FSPart of Speech: - V: Verb Grammatical Categories: - Stem Qal: Qal - Aspect Perf: Perfect - Person 3: 3rd Person - Gender F: Feminine - Number S: Singular

See here:

https://uhg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/stem_qal.html

 

[iamaberean]

And God said, Let there be a FIRMAMENT in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the FIRMAMENT, and divided the waters which were under the FIRMAMENT from the waters which were above the FIRMAMENT: and it was so. And God called the FIRMAMENT Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day
firmament means a support
"rakia" which is used in this verse has nothing to do with "support".

And God said, Let there be AN EXPANSE in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made THE EXPANSE, THE SKY, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse: and it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

[7djengo7]

We Don't Hear Much From Today's Prophecy Teachers, Why Do You Think That Is?

To whom are you referring by your pronoun, "We"?

Are you saying that, today, nobody teaches much on prophecy? If so, then whom are you calling "Today's Prophecy Teachers"?

 

[JudgeRightly]

And God said, Let there be a FIRMAMENT in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the FIRMAMENT, and divided the waters which were under the FIRMAMENT from the waters which were above the FIRMAMENT: and it was so. And God called the FIRMAMENT Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Funny how out of the nine times firmament is used there is no qualifier attached to the first five, yet the last four have the qualifier "of the heavens."

:think:

It's like there's a distinction being made between the two uses...

firmament means a support

"Firmamentum" literally means "that which strengthens or supports."

Which gives an idea as to what it refers to, but since it is only a translation of the original word, some of the meaning is left out.

"rakia" which is used in this verse has nothing to do with "support".

And? So what? Firmament, as I just said, is simply a Latin word used in place of raqia. The original word is raqia. That's the word you need to use to get an accurate idea of what is being described.

And God said, Let there be AN EXPANSE

Exactly. Raqia refers to an expanse, and firmament refers to that same expanse, just like raqia hashamayim refers to a DIFFERENT expanse, and firmament of the heavens refers to that different expanse.

In other words:

There is not one, but there are TWO expanses, TWO firmaments in Genesis 1.

The firmament called Heaven.

And

The firmament of the heavens.

in the midst of the waters,

People, including you, always seem to forget this part of the verse, or say it means something other than what it says.

This is the actual location of the first firmament, the firmament called Heaven. It is NOT the location of the firmament of the heavens.

So where are these "waters"?

Look at verse 2:

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:2&version=NKJV

In other words, this:

and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Describes something like this:

And that regarding this:

And God made THE EXPANSE, THE SKY,

which is something YOU ADDED TO SCRIPTURE, which is not in scripture, it makes your poor attempt at a translation utterly wrong.

Because THIS:

and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse;

Looks like THIS:

and it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

All in all, you should stop trying to re-translate the Bible. If you're that desparate for a different translation than the one you currently use, try the NKJV. It's about as accurate and modern as one can get without changing the meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek.

In other words, You don't have the qualifications to even attempt to write your own Bible, let alone change what's already written.