ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[Jerry Shugart]

The fact that our doctrine allows us to read the gospels and understand them to mean what they say sounds like a lie to Jerry's ears. He flat out does not believe us when we make such a claim and there's no way to convince him.

Clete says that his doctrine allows him to read the gospels and understand them to mean what they say. So perhaps Clete can tell us his interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law in the following verse:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (Jn.11:25).​

No matter how many verses which I quote where the Lord Jesus makes it plain that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith apart from works he refuses to believe any of them.

Why?

Because his final authority is not the Scriptures but instead what the Neo-MADs say about the Scriptures.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Clete says that his doctrine allows him to read the gospels and understand them to mean what they say. So perhaps Clete can tell us his interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law in the following verse:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (Jn.11:25).​

No matter how many verses which I quote where the Lord Jesus makes it plain that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith apart from works he refuses to believe any of them.

Why?

Because his final authority is not the Scriptures but instead what the Neo-MADs say about the Scriptures.

:think:

Clete is selective about which verses he will believe in the Bible. Some he will believe and others he just ignores. That is why he continually refuses to give us his interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

What's really sad is when someone who clams to be a dispensationalist cannot differentiate between two different dispensations, and then because of that, accuses other dispensationalists of rejecting scripture that they do not reject.

The saving of Paul on the road to Damascus.



Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of what His ministry of the Law.



:mock:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As usual those in the Neo-MAD camp just ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law which make it plain that their salvation was on the basis of faith and faith alone:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (Jn.11:25).​

In the following passage the Lord Jesus told a Jewish woman that it was her faith which saved her:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

These words mean nothing to those in the Neo-MAD camp because they have been taught that the Jews could not be saved apart from works. They have not yet learned that Christ the the end of the law for rightousnesss unto all who believe:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

Those in the Neo-MAD camp do not believe what is said here:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

It says that "whoever believes" has eternal life and will not perish. It doesn't say "whoever believes and does works" has eternal life and will not perish.

 

[JudgeRightly]

As usual those in the Neo-MAD camp just ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law . . . .

:think:

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of His ministry of the Law.

The only one ignoring things here is you, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The only one ignoring things here is you, Jerry.

I am still waiting for any of you in the Neo-MAD camp to actually address John 3:16, John 5:47, John 6:63, John 11:25 and Luke 7:48-50.

And you say that it is me who is ignoring things.

HA, HA!

 

[JudgeRightly]

I am still waiting for any of you in the Neo-MAD camp to actually address John 3:16, John 5:47, John 6:63, John 11:25 and Luke 7:48-50.

And you say that it is me who is ignoring things.

You missed it. Try again:

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of His ministry of Law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You missed it. Try again:

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of His ministry of Law.

HA!

In what way did the context change the plain meaning of the Lord Jesus' words here?:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

I don't know what you are doing on a "Exclusively Christian Theology" thread since you deny His words time after time.

 

[JudgeRightly]

HA!

In what way did the context change the plain meaning of the Lord Jesus' words here?:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

I don't know what you are doing on a "Exclusively Christian Theology" thread since you deny His words time after time.

You're still missing it.

Try again.

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of His ministry of Law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're still missing it.

Try again.

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of His ministry of Law.

That helps you none because His ministry to the Jews was to save sinners. And law keeping saved no one but only condemned:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith" (Gal.3:10-11).​

According to the teaching of the Neo-MAD crowd the Jews who lived under the law had to justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law despite the fact that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident."

The Lord Jesus' ministry among the Jews was to save sinners and law keeping did not contribute to the salvation of any Jews. The only way that the Jewish sinners were saved is stated here by the Lord Jesus:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Clete]

According to the teaching of the Neo-MAD crowd the Jews who lived under the law had to justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law....

False

 

[Jerry Shugart]

False

Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?

 

[Clete]

Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?

Jesus answered this question...

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”​

Now Jerry, don't tell me that you don't believe the words of Jesus!

 

[jamesdyson]

.,.,., then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Jer 14:8 KJV)O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
(Deu 10:19 KJV)Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow
(Jer 7:6 KJV)If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
(Jer 22:3 KJV)Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
(Zec 7:10 KJV)And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
This is the one I like the most----
(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus answered this question...

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”​

Now Jerry, don't tell me that you don't believe the words of Jesus!

Unlike you I do believe Him. If a Jew kept the law perfectly he would indeed inherit eternal life, just as the Lord Jesus said. But if he broke just one commandment he was guilty of all (Jas.2:10). And the Lord Jesus told the Jews that none of them kept the law:

"Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law?" (Jn.7:19).​

Since all of the Jews were guilty of breaking the law then all of them were guilty of all. The law was not given so the Jews could be saved by keeping it but instead it was given so that they would have the knowledge of sin and therefore have the knowledge that they were sinners in need of a Savior:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro. 3:20).​

Earlier I said:

"According to the teaching of the Neo-MAD crowd the Jews who lived under the law had to justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law despite the fact that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that 'no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident.'"​

To this you replied:

False

If you were not trying to prove that the Jews had to do the works of the law in order to be saved then why did you quote Matthew 19:16-21? You stay in a state of confusion because you just refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He told them how they could be saved:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

In the following passage the Apostle Paul declares how the LORD God will judge people according to their deeds or works:

"Who (God) will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Ro.2:6-12).​

Those who "continue in well doing" will inherit eternal life. But those who don't continue in well doing by sinning will perish. At that point in time the only way anyone can be saved is by the mercy or grace of God. And here the Lord Jesus tells us how a person is saved by the grace of God, whether they be Jews or Gentiles:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Clete]

If you were not trying to prove that the Jews had to do the works of the law in order to be saved then why did you quote Matthew 19:16-21? You stay in a state of confusion because you just refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He told them how they could be saved:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

The Jews did have to do the works of the law in order to be saved. What they did not have to do was "justify themselves in the eyes of God by keeping the law". Fallen human beings justifying themselves is not possible. That does not mean, however, that the Jew did not have to obey the Law. They absolutely did have to obey it and they had to repent when they failed to do so.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.​

Sort of hard to end something that never started.

You aught not take this as me having any desire to debate this with you, you're entirely a waste of time in that regard. The real point here is that you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Stick with telling people what you believe and let us in the "Neo-MAD community" speak for ourselves. (Incidentally, the use of pejorative sounding nick names only shows the weakness of your own position. It doesn't persuade anyone with a working mind. Not that you seem to care about that.)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Jews did have to do the works of the law in order to be saved.

You ought to read the Bible for a change and throw your Neo-MAD Guide to the Bible in the trash. Here is what is said about David, who lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

In this passage Paul speaks of David as being a man whose faith is counted for righteousness apart from works. Since God imputed righteousness to David he was indeed saved apart from works. Or perhaps you want to argue that even though David's faith was counted as righteousness he wasn't saved?

Are you willing to argue that even though Paul used David as an example of a man whom God imputeth righteousness without works that David wasn't saved apart from works?

Stick with telling people what you believe and let us in the "Neo-MAD community" speak for ourselves. (Incidentally, the use of pejorative sounding nick names only shows the weakness of your own position. It doesn't persuade anyone with a working mind. Not that you seem to care about that.)

There is nothing pejorative about the name "Neo"-MAD." It simply means "New MAD."

The original MAD theology did not teach that works were necessary for salvation in any dispensation and original MAD taught that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles applies to those in the Body of Christ.

Original MAD teaches that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to them:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

The teaching of those in the Neo-MAD camp denies these very words of the Lord and Savior!

 

[Clete]

Are you willing to argue that even though Paul used David as an example of a man whom God imputeth righteousness without works that David wasn't saved apart from works?

Yes!

Psalms 119

That entire chapter really but just to give a flavor...

153 Consider my affliction and deliver me,
For I do not forget Your law.
154 Plead my cause and redeem me;
Revive me according to Your word.
155 Salvation is far from the wicked,
For they do not seek Your statutes.


163 I hate and abhor lying,
But I love Your law.
164 Seven times a day I praise You,
Because of Your righteous judgments.
165 Great peace have those who love Your law,
And nothing causes them to stumble.
166 Lord, I hope for Your salvation,
And I do Your commandments.
167 My soul keeps Your testimonies,
And I love them exceedingly.
168 I keep Your precepts and Your testimonies,
For all my ways are before You.


171 My lips shall utter praise,
For You teach me Your statutes.
172 My tongue shall speak of Your word,
For all Your commandments are righteousness.
173 Let Your hand become my help,
For I have chosen Your precepts.
174 I long for Your salvation, O Lord,
And Your law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise You;
And let Your judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep;
Seek Your servant,
For I do not forget Your commandments.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes!

So according to your twisted logic God imputed righteousness to David but David wasn't saved.

Of course you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of those in the Neo-Mad camp. You continue to deny the very words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He makes it plain that they were saved by faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Cntrysner]

Since you and those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works then tell us what "works" did the Jews who lived under the law have to do to justify themselves in the eyes of God?

What "works" did David, who lived under the law, have to do to be saved?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Would you agree that Christ had to die before anyone could be free from the law that held them?