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Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Your argument presumes that he wouldn't have had sex with his wife anyway.

    People have sex with their spouses, T6! It doesn't take any faith in anything for that to happen, whether the wife is barren or not.
    I understand he was already doing what was necessary to fulfill the covenant. My point is after believing he was REQUIRED to do SOMETHING in order for the covenant to come to pass.

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Because our salvation is not based on our righteousness but on Christ's!
    I agree

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Your objection rests on the resurrection of the law and places us back under it.
    Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
    I do not place us back under the law of Moses. Yes, Christ has taken it out of the way and nailed it to the cross. Please consider my comment/question below.

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Does our sin negate Christ's righteousness? Certainly not! For were the is no law, sin is not imputed.

    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

    18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

    20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Are you suggesting that with the law of Moses removed our sins are not counted against us? It is my understanding that they are not counted against us IF we continue to follow Christ after believing.

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    "Obey grace"?
    The gospel is grace correct? How does one obey the gospel?
    2 Thess. 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    You have, perhaps more than anyone I've ever discussed this with, turned "grace" into a synonym of "law". As a result, you keep conflating salvation with sanctification. Under the law, salvation and sanctification were the same thing. You were saved because you had faith in God and lived a righteous life. I don't think there is any one anywhere that would deny that much. But your doctrine is no different than that! You have quite literally turned grace into law.


    So, is this you stating bluntly that law and grace are not different, that they are, in fact, effectively synonymous?
    I don’t see how it is not. Now I’m not talking about the law of Moses but God’s law which is the law of Christ. There is a difference. Paul recognized he was not outside of God's law.
    21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

    Help me to see it from your point of view. For example, when Paul says “flee sexual immorality and we choose to practice sexual immorality, isn’t this considered sin? Can we agree sin is missing the mark? So if you consider it sin, what is the mark?

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Rather, it is the revelation of a mystery that had been kept secret since the world began (Romans 16).
    I would suggest to you that the gospel of Christ began before Paul, Mk. 1:1. That Jesus preached the secret things before Paul, Matt. 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:
    “I will open my mouth in parables;
    I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”


    When you read the parable of the sower, does it describe the “earthly” kingdom you envision being offered to the Jews or what Paul was doing? If the parable of the sower is the “earthly” kingdom, please explain.

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    P.S. Why did you ignore this point?....

    No one could ever accuse you of ever preaching that we ought to sin that grace may abound or even that your doctrine implies such a thing. It would never in a thousand years occur to anyone to make such an accusation against your doctrine. Your entire lordship salvation doctrine is specifically designed to prevent anyone from ever getting that idea. You squeeze and twist and jump through whatever theological hoops that are necessary in order to make sure that no one ever makes that accusation, including going so far as to suggest that Abraham was made righteous by, of all things, having sex with his wife.
    Sorry, I wasn’t trying to ignore it. It looked more like a comment than an argument and I thought my other points would address this comment. Here’s my questions based on this comment. Is Jesus your Lord? If you do not strife to live your life according to His instructions after believing, is Jesus still your Lord?

    “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
    Last edited by turbosixx; July 14th, 2019, 09:54 AM. Reason: Cleanup
    Wretched man that I am.

    Comment


    • #62
      No time now for editing this! Sorry for any typos! I'll come back later and edit stuff.

      Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
      I understand he was already doing what was necessary to fulfill the covenant. My point is after believing he was REQUIRED to do SOMETHING in order for the covenant to come to pass.
      He was required to breath, drink water, eat food, put clothes on and do whatever other things his life conisted of.

      Your so called "requirement" is meaningless nonsense that renders the whole discussion moot.

      In short, you're grasping at straws here - at best and flat out rationalizing at worst. If the text doesn't fit your doctrine, it isn't the text that needs massaging.

      I agree
      No, you don't.

      You think adding your less than two cents worth of works in on the purchase price for your soul, which Christ paid in full at the cross, is required.

      I do not place us back under the law of Moses.
      Of course you do!

      Want to see?

      Tell me - What works of obedience do you think are required? List them for me.

      Try to do so while avoiding the Ten Commanments or any of the other 600+ laws given by Moses. You will fail. (Gal. 3:21)

      Yes, Christ has taken it out of the way and nailed it to the cross. Please consider my comment/question below.

      Are you suggesting that with the law of Moses removed our sins are not counted against us?
      That's the gospel T6!!!

      Of course that's what I'm saying! That's the whole point of Paul's ministry! You are NOT saved by what you do but by believing and trusting in what Christ has done for you! That's it, that's all and there is nothing else! Your righteousness is Christ's and NOT YOUR OWN!!!


      It is my understanding that they are not counted against us IF we continue to follow Christ after believing.
      By "follow Christ" you mean to do right and avoid evil - right?

      If so, then on what basis could you possibly say that you aren't saved by your own righteousness?

      Becuase you can't be perfect and so God graces you out? That's Israel's program! You are function as a procelite Jew under a dispensation of law!

      Paul does not teach this! He does not teach that you begin in Christ by faith but continue by being obedient! On the contrary! He makes an explicit point of saying that you are made perfect by the very same method by which you were saved in the first place. You were saved by faith alone, you walk by the exact same thing, by faith apart from works.

      You want to make a big deal out of the phrase "... of the law" but there are no other kind by which people could ever be saved (Gal. 3:21).

      Christians aught to do rightly and God has saved us "unto good works" but such works do not have anything to do with aquiring, continuing, maintaining or otherwise enhancing our relationship with God or our salvation. We have NO STANDING in and of ourselves before God. Our standing is in Christ and in Him ALONE - period. If you do good works, do them because you love God and your love your neighbor and you store up reward for yourself in Heaven but if you do them because of obligation or duty or whatever, you are exercising your flesh. All such works will be burned up on judgment day.

      The gospel is grace correct? How does one obey the gospel?
      2 Thess. 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
      Paul is speaking of unbelievers in that passage. If you read more than that one sentence it's super clear and obvious.

      I don’t see how it is not. Now I’m not talking about the law of Moses but God’s law which is the law of Christ. There is a difference. Paul recognized he was not outside of God's law.
      21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

      Help me to see it from your point of view. For example, when Paul says “flee sexual immorality and we choose to practice sexual immorality, isn’t this considered sin? Can we agree sin is missing the mark? So if you consider it sin, what is the mark?
      So we are back to the "sin that grace may abound" idea.

      Of course sexual immorality is sin!

      Whether you commit it or not has NOTHING to do with whether you're saved, for all have sinned! Everyone! There is not one single human being alive, aside from Jesus Christ Himself, who has not sinned in a manner that disqualifies him for spending eternity in the presence of God. NOT ONE PERSON! So it doesn't matter whether you're talking about sexual immorality or murder or slapping your Mother or stealing a grape from the grocery store. The bottom line is that we are all doomed and without hope aside from God's grace.

      The point here, however, is that it's God's grace, not ours or Paul's or Peter's. God alone gets to decide who He is going to apply His grace too and why. It's 100% His very own perogotive to decide who gets saved and under what conditions. From the time Abraham was circumcized until the stoning of Stephen, it was "trust and obey for there's no other way". Paul's gospel, on the other hand, is not "trust and obey" but rather "trust and rest". The Law kills but the Spirit (capital S) gives life. We have been executed by the law in Christ. The law, therefore, has nothing more to say to us. The law does not apply to dead men! But if we died in Him by faith, we were also raised in Him - BY FAITH! So that now we do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

      You, however, want to resurrect your flesh and think you're required to do this and refrain from that. You are quick to point out the big sins like sexual immorality but it's the "little" sins that trip up your doctrine. That curse word you spout in your car at some annonymous driver who cut you off; the grumbling you do under your breath when annoyed by your wife or kids, that grape you "sample" at the grocery store without paying for it, or whatever other "small" sin that you care to name, would keep you out of heaven just a surely as murdering your neihbor and sleeping with his wife would. You want to think that Christian who commit adultery aren't saved but you're no better than they, not when compared to the absolute holy perfection of the Father and of His Son Jesus Christ who paid and infinite price for your soul and for which you have nothing of value to add.

      I would suggest to you that the gospel of Christ began before Paul, Mk. 1:1. That Jesus preached the secret things before Paul, Matt. 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:
      “I will open my mouth in parables;
      I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”
      Contradictory.

      That which was kept secret was not also prophesied.

      Further, everything Jesus did was prophesied in and was a fulfillment of scripture. Every major event occured on a Jewish Feast Day. Jesus was born (Tabernacles), He died (Passover), was in the grave (Unlevened bread), rose from the death (First Fruit) gave the Holy Spirit (Weeks - Pentecost). The next feast would be Trumpets and had God not cut off Israel it too would have been fulfilled just as the other were. But He did cut off Israel and so all of that is put on hold.

      Now how could it have been put on hold before Christ's death if the feasts of Israel were still being fulfilled on the very day of the feast through the Feast of Weeks?


      Further, if Jesus was preaching "the secret things" that Paul refers to in Romans 16 then there would have been no need for Paul in the first place. Jesus already had Twelve fully trained, Spirit filled Apostles who had been given the "Great Commission". There would have been no need for a thirteenth Apostle who went to the entire world while the Twelve ministered to Israel (Gal. 2).

      When you read the parable of the sower, does it describe the “earthly” kingdom you envision being offered to the Jews or what Paul was doing? If the parable of the sower is the “earthly” kingdom, please explain.
      I don't have to think. It is not a matter of opinion. Jesus Himself explains the parable...
      Matthew 13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

      Note the clear teaching that one can lose their salvation. This alone tells you that it cannot be the same gospel that Paul preached for we have been baught at a price and given the Spirit of God Himself as EARNEST against the promise our safe deliverence to the day of redemption. We cannot lose our savlation because God cannot be unfaithful to Himself. Even if we are faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:13)

      Sorry, I wasn’t trying to ignore it. It looked more like a comment than an argument and I thought my other points would address this comment. Here’s my questions based on this comment. Is Jesus your Lord? If you do not strife to live your life according to His instructions after believing, is Jesus still your Lord?

      “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
      Jesus is my Lord but not in the sense in which you mean it.

      In fact, the sense in which you mean it implies that we, as believers, have not been crucified in Christ. Does a dead man have a lord?

      It is no longer I who live but Christ lives His life through me. Is Christ the Lord of Himself? Yes, indeed He is.

      The life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who gave Himself for me. When the Father looks at me, He sees Christ. Not because I do good and refrain from evil but because I am hidden in Him! And that's the only reason! The fact is that I do not do good nor refrain from evil and neither do you, nor can we. Christ alone is righteous.
      Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

      21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

      So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

      Resting in Him,
      Clete
      Last edited by Clete; July 15th, 2019, 06:23 AM.
      sigpic
      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

      Comment


      • #63
        I don't have time to address it all. I will in a couple of days but I wanted to address this.

        Originally posted by Clete View Post
        Paul does not teach this! He does not teach that you begin in Christ by faith but continue by being obedient!
        Paul says exactly that. Col. 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
        They have been reconciled in Christ's body and He will present them blameless IF they continue in the faith.


        Much like he tells the Gentiles in Romans 11
        22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
        Wretched man that I am.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
          Isn't it true that those saved today are not under the law as they were bound under the contract?
          True!

          Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes:

          "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"
          (Ro.10:4).

          The Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

          "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
          (Jn.6:47).

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            True!

            Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes:

            "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"
            (Ro.10:4).

            The Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

            "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
            (Jn.6:47).
            The words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Faither View Post
              The words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations!
              So please provide a translation which has it correct if you can.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                So please provide a translation which has it correct if you can.
                I already have many times at length. A better question would be , why do you refuse to surrender your life and will over to God? Please provide a good enough excuse if you can

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                  I don't have time to address it all. I will in a couple of days but I wanted to address this.



                  Paul says exactly that. Col. 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
                  They have been reconciled in Christ's body and He will present them blameless IF they continue in the faith.


                  Much like he tells the Gentiles in Romans 11
                  22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
                  This is so totally disappointing. I'm seriously saddened by this response. Of all the things you could have said, you choose the path of proof texting.

                  I am telling you that your proof texting manner of doctrine will absolutely ship wreck your faith, if it hasn't already done so. (No, that doesn't mean I think you have or that you even can loose your salvation.)

                  I can't decide whether it's even wise to attempt to respond directly and talk specifically about these two verses you've arrested your entire spiritual life with because I know from experience that it won't move you an inch. Your response will be to find more proof texts for me to shoot down and then more and then more. If I wrote a commentary on the entire bible, you still would not be convinced because it isn't the bible that informs your mind but rather it is your doctrine.

                  I certainly do not have time this morning to deal properly with these passages but will try to do so when time allows. If for no other reason, it'll at least demonstrate how such passages are to be properly understood and it will demonstrate that those of us who rightly divide the scriptures don't simply ignore such passages (there's nothing to ignore). For now, I'll simple say that two widely separated sentences do not under cut Paul entire ministry - something that aught to be intuitive but that almost never is when dealing with Christians reading the bible hunting for proof texts.

                  Clete
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    So please provide a translation which has it correct if you can.
                    Originally posted by Faither View Post
                    I already have many times at length. A better question would be , why do you refuse to surrender your life and will over to God? Please provide a good enough excuse if you can
                    Not in this thread you haven't, so would you at the very least, link to a post of yours where you have?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      Not in this thread you haven't, so would you at the very least, link to a post of yours where you have?
                      Why do you willingly refuse to surrender your life to Him, and live a life inspired by such surrender, when He surrendered His life for you?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Faither View Post
                        Why do you willingly refuse to surrender your life to Him, and live a life inspired by such surrender, when He surrendered His life for you?
                        You appear to be a classic example of "holier than thou".
                        All of my ancestors are human.
                        Originally posted by Squeaky
                        That explains why your an idiot.
                        Originally posted by God's Truth
                        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                          I don't have time to address it all. I will in a couple of days but I wanted to address this.



                          Paul says exactly that. Col. 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
                          They have been reconciled in Christ's body and He will present them blameless IF they continue in the faith.


                          Much like he tells the Gentiles in Romans 11
                          22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
                          I said that I'd address these passages directly but I've changed my mind.

                          I started to write something up but the further I went the more I got convinced that my effort was going to be counter productive. It would be worse than a waste of time!

                          What you've got to understand is that I've been doing this for a very very long time and I know for a fact that anything I say in direct response to your proof texting will only cement you further into your own doctrine because my doing so tacitly accepts your premise. I cannot covert you to a more correct paradigm by arguing from a premise that supports an errant paradigm.

                          All I will say is this:

                          The Colossians passage is not saying that your making it to heaven is conditional but that your doing so "above reproach" is. Remember that there will be those who's works will all be burned up but they themsleve will be saved "as though through fire". If you don't want to be one of those, you're going to have to continue in the faith.

                          The Romans passage isn't talking about individuals being saved at all. It's referring to the Body of Christ as a group and comparing it's potential fate to that of Israel. The point is that God does not have to continue the Body of Christ's program (i.e. the dispensation of Grace) indefinitely and that He is within His rights to end it if we as Christians end up going the way Israel did.

                          Now, I could spend a great deal of time establishing all of that but that's as far as I'm willing to go here and I probably shouldn't have even gone that far for even that much grants your premise, although I understand that you don't see how.

                          The bottom line is you cannot cherry pick passages to suit your doctrine. That isn't how the bible was written and that isn't how it was ever intended to be studied or understood. Two sentences cannot be made to undercut the whole rest of Paul's writtings and ministry. As I've said several times now, (without response from you, by the way) if your doctrine was correct, there'd have never been any need for Paul in the first place.

                          Clete
                          sigpic
                          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Faither View Post
                            Why do you willingly refuse to surrender your life to Him, and live a life inspired by such surrender, when He surrendered His life for you?
                            Why do you refuse to answer questions when they are directly put to you and then expect others to respond to yours?

                            If you post this question again without having first presented a post establishing your asinine claim that "the words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations (sic)" in both Romans 10:4 and John 6:47, then I, for one, will put you on ignore and never read another word you ever post.

                            (You do, of course, have the option of recanting that idiotic claim and admitting that you were just being a troll.)
                            Last edited by Clete; July 16th, 2019, 06:04 AM. Reason: corrected the wording of the question
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              I am saying that the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith just like those who are saved now.

                              "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
                              (Ro.4:16).

                              Sir Robert Anderson agrees with me.
                              You say "just like"..how can it be "just like" when the difference is apparent regarding the law that they were bound to by contract.? Was the Mosaic law nothing at all and why was it removed?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                                I agree we must obey in order to be worthy of the gift of grace.
                                I wish the KJV had not of used "believeth not" instead of "does not obey" in this verse.
                                Jn. 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
                                Believeth not is perfectly fine if one understands that to believe is to obey and thus to not obey is to not believe.

                                Talking about those who came out of Egypt, we see the definition of unbelief is disobedience.
                                Heb. 3:18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.


                                FYI, it would be easier to read your post if you would us a different color for scripture/your words so we can tell where one ends and the other begins.
                                did you really need to quote that big long post to make your point?
                                So, what?

                                believe it!

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