ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I want you to reconcile the apparent contradiction so you can gain some stability instead of being blown about by every wind of doctrine.

According to you I am blown away by every wind of doctrine because I happen to believe the following words which the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

I will waste no more of my time with someone who calls himself a Christian but at the same times denies the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, they don't. That's your bias driving your "interpretation".

Then what were James and Peter speaking about when they used the words "free" and liberty? The Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that all believers have been set free from the law:

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).​

The following words of Peter are likewise speaking of being free and at liberty from the law:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).

James speaks of the "perfect law of liberty":

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed" (James 1:25).​

Are we to believe that the "law of liberty" spoken of here is the Law, which Peter referred to as a "yoke"?:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).​

Paul also referred to the Law as a "yoke of bondage":

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

Paul contrasted the "yoke of bondage" with the "liberty" which belongs to all who have been set free from the law. So common sense dictates that the "perfect law of liberty" of which James speaks is not the Law of Moses.

Again, what were James and Peter speaking about when they used the words "free" and "liberty"?

Will you actually answer that question and show that you can actually discuss the Scriptures in an intelligent manner?

 

[genuineoriginal]

According to you I am blown away by every wind of doctrine because I happen to believe the following words which the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

I will waste no more of my time with someone who calls himself a Christian but at the same times denies the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Jesus said many things in plain words that you deny.

Luke 18:29-30 29 And he said unto them, [JESUS]Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,[/JESUS] 30 [JESUS]Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.[/JESUS]​

You seem to be stuck thinking that believers have eternal life in this present time when Jesus plainly stated that life everlasting is to be received in the world to come.

 

[Right Divider]

Then what were James and Peter speaking about when they used the words "free" and liberty? The Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that all believers have been set free from the law:

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

False equivocation is not going to work with me.

In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).​

Once again, we know what PAUL taught. So what?

The following words of Peter are likewise speaking of being free and at liberty from the law:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).

Jesus told them, including Peter, to teach all nations to keep all of the commandments (Matt. 28:20 with Matt. 23:1-3).

But you think that was somehow ignored or rescinded?

James speaks of the "perfect law of liberty":

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed" (James 1:25).​

Once again forcing your "story" onto the scripture.

This is the SAME James that was proud of his disciples being zealous for the law in Acts 21.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Once again forcing your "story" onto the scripture.

Once again you expect others to answer your questions but you refuse to answer theirs.

What were James and Peter speaking about when they used the words "free" and "liberty"?

Will you actually answer that question and show that you can actually discuss the Scriptures in an intelligent manner?

 

[Right Divider]

Once again you expect others to answer your questions but you refuse to answer theirs.

What were James and Peter speaking about when they used the words "free" and "liberty"?

I'll tell you what they weren't saying. They weren't saying that the circumcision were no longer under the law.

You make this ASSUMPTION based on your bias and not because it says anything about not being under the law.

Jas 1:22-25 KJV But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: (24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. (25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.​

How anyone can read that and not see that James is telling them to keep the law is beyond me.

Will you actually answer that question and show that you can actually discuss the Scriptures in an intelligent manner?

There can be no doubt.... blah blah blah.

The disciples of James and Peter were clearly zealous for the law throughout their lives as attested by Acts 21.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'll tell you what they weren't saying. They weren't saying that the circumcision were no longer under the law.

I didn't ask you to tell me what James and Peter were not saying when they used the words "free" and "liberty." I asked you what they were speaking of when they used those words.

All you prove is that you are unable to have an intelligent discussion on this subject.

You make this ASSUMPTION based on your bias and not because it says anything about not being under the law.

You just ASSUME that they were not speaking of being free and at liberty from the law.

In the following verse James tells us exactly how the Jews were saved and of course you just ignore it just like you ignore all the Scriptures that demonstrate that your ideas are bankrupt:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Where is any mention of the law in that verse, ignorer-in-chief?

The following words written by the author of the book of Hebrews makes it plain that the law had been done away and of course you just ignored it also:

"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb.7:18-19).​

The disciples of James and Peter were clearly zealous for the law throughout their lives as attested by Acts 21.

Of course you just ignored the fact that at Acts 21 Paul also took part in law-keeping. And you continue to ignore the following words of the Savior spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

The way you divide the Bible is by separating the verses which you will believe from the ones which you just ignore!

 

[Right Divider]

I didn't ask you to tell me what James and Peter were not saying when they used the words "free" and "liberty." I asked you what they were speaking of when they used those words.

All you prove is that you are unable to have an intelligent discussion on this subject.

No, I've proven that I will not fall for your traps.

You just ASSUME that they were not speaking of being free and at liberty from the law.

In the following verse James tells us exactly how the Jews were saved and of course you just ignore it just like you ignore all the Scriptures that demonstrate that your ideas are bankrupt:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Where is any mention of the law in that verse, ignorer-in-chief?

The following words written by the author of the book of Hebrews makes it plain that the law had been done away and of course you just ignored it also:

"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb.7:18-19).​

Of course you just ignored the fact that at Acts 21 Paul also took part in law-keeping. And you continue to ignore the following words of the Savior spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

The way you divide the Bible is by separating the verses which you will believe from the ones which you just ignore!

From the pet verses guy? :rotfl:

Will law breaking Israelite's enter the kingdom?

Once again, you will probably accuse me of saying that Jews had to keep the law to receive eternal life. Go ahead and accuse me of that again; I never said that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Will law breaking Israelite's enter the kingdom?

They all broke the law, including the Twelve! But they will sit upon twelve thrones in the kingdom judging the twelve tribes!

You really need to start reading the Bible for a change and you might actually learn something.

Once again, you will probably accuse me of saying that Jews had to keep the law to receive eternal life. Go ahead and accuse me of that again; I never said that.

So you finally agree that the following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law by the Lord Jesus proves that they were saved by faith apart from works?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Yes or no? If your answer is "no" then tell us why the Jews who lived under the law didn't receive eternal life upon believing since the Savior Himself said that His words are spirit and they are life.

Or do you have those two verses on your "ignore" list?

 

[Right Divider]

They all broke the law, including the Twelve! But they will sit upon twelve thrones in the kingdom judging the twelve tribes!

You don't understand the law. The law contains what to do when your break the law.... thereby keeping the law.

KEEPING the law is NOT about perfectly never breaking the law.

Luk 1:5-6 KJV There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.​

The Bible says that these two were blameless regarding ALL the commandments and ordinances.

You really need to start reading the Bible for a change and you might actually learn something.

Your insults are very helpful.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You don't understand the law. The law contains what to do when your break the law.... thereby keeping the law.

So the Lord Jesus was in error when He told the Jews the following?:

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?" (Jn.7:19).

I guess that will go on your "ignore" list, just like the Lord Jesus' following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Right Divider]

So the Lord Jesus was in error when He told the Jews the following?:

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?" (Jn.7:19).

Does Jerry not understand figures of speech? That is what is called a GENERALIZATION. It does NOT mean "none" in the ultimate sense, as in "every single one". I showed YOU the scripture that proves this point and yet you ignore it.

Here it is AGAIN:

Luk 1:5-6 KJV There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
​

I guess that will go on your "ignore" list, just like the Lord Jesus' following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

I believe it!

Apples and walruses Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does Jerry not understand figures of speech? That is what is called a GENERALIZATION. It does NOT mean "none" in the ultimate sense, as in "every single one". I showed YOU the scripture that proves this point and yet you ignore it.

Paul said that touching the righteousness which is in the law he was blameless (Phil.3:6) but at the same time he did not keep the law (Ro.7:7-9). Evidently Paul meant that he had a flawless external record of legalistic righteousness.

As the Lord Jesus said, none of the Jews kept the law and that was because they all sinned and came short of the glory of God. Do you really think that there was a single Jew who did the following?:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Mt.22:36-40).​

I believe it!

So you finally understand that the Jews who lived under the law received eternal life when they believed and nothing but faith was required from them to be saved?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Right Divider]

Paul said that touching the righteousness which is in the law he was blameless (Phil.3:6) but at the same time he did not keep the law (Ro.7:7-9). Evidently Paul meant that he had a flawless external record of legalistic righteousness.

And you think that this somehow invalidates Luke?

As the Lord Jesus said, none of the Jews kept the law and that was because they all sinned and came short of the glory of God. Do you really think that there was a single Jew who did the following?:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Mt.22:36-40).​

So you finally understand that the Jews who lived under the law received eternal life when they believed and nothing but faith was required from them to be saved?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Please QUOTE me saying "perfectly keeping the law was required for eternal life for Israel".

It seems to me that YOU are advocating that there was never any merit in keeping the law.

Could Israel just "believe" and then completely ignore the law?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And you think that this somehow invalidates Luke?

Do you think that Paul said he was "blameless" in regard to the righteousness which is in the law (Phil.3:6) in the sense that he kept the Ten Commandments perfectly? Paul's sense in which he used "blameless" explains Luke, not invalidates it.

Please QUOTE me saying "perfectly keeping the law was required for eternal life for Israel".

I am curious why you asked me the following question:

"Will law breaking Israelite's enter the kingdom?"​

It seems to me that YOU are advocating that there was never any merit in keeping the law.

I never said that.

Could Israel just "believe" and then completely ignore the law?

Can Christians just ignore the commandmemts of the Lord Jesus mentioned by Paul at 1 Thessalonians 4:2-7?

That should answer your question. But just as keeping His commandments plays no part in the salvation of Christians it can also be said that the Law played no part in the salvation of the Jews who lived under the law. After all, the Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Right Divider]

Do you think that Paul said he was "blameless" in regard to the righteousness which is in the law (Phil.3:6) in the sense that he kept the Ten Commandments perfectly? Paul's sense in which he used "blameless" explains Luke, not invalidates it.

Nice try...

I am curious why you asked me the following question:

"Will law breaking Israelite's enter the kingdom?"​

It's a simple question.

I never said that.

I didn't say that you said it... only that you seem to belittle the law.

The Bible says that in the future, God's Spirit will allow Israel to keep the law. Eze 36

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I didn't say that you said it... only that you seem to belittle the law.

I never belittled the law.

The Bible says that in the future, God's Spirit will allow Israel to keep the law. Eze 36

So?

That doesn't change the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Not only do you belittle those words of the Lord Jesus but you also refuse to believe them.

Sad!

 

[Cntrysner]

We all are under God's law. God's law will never fade because what he wrote or said is truth and His law written on stone or on paper or in hearts will endure as long as He does.

 

[Cntrysner]

I never belittled the law.



So?

That doesn't change the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Not only do you belittle those words of the Lord Jesus but you also refuse to believe them.

Sad!

Sadness runs about as deep as your will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sadness runs about as deep as your will.

No, it runs as deep as your unbelief and that is why you deny the following words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​