ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[Clete]

You remain the natural man, Clete:

And this is one of the primary reason I don't read your posts any more. I haven't read one syllable past this sentence nor will I do so.

People who disagree with you and present cogent arguments are met with "you're not even saved" or the equivalent. You're a complete waste of time.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And this is one of the primary reason I don't read your posts any more. I haven't read one syllable past this sentence nor will I do so.

People who disagree with you and present cogent arguments are met with "you're not even saved" or the equivalent. You're a complete waste of time.

That's not true!

I discuss things about the Scriptures and I hardly ever tell anyone that they are not saved. Your unbelief is so extreme that you cannot even understand that the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law which makes it plain that those Jews were saved by faith alone apart from works:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:41).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

He told a Jewish woman that her faith saved her:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Since you cannot understand the Lord Jesus' words in these passages you attack me personally in the hope that no one will notice that you avoid the words of the Lord Jesus which I quoted like the plague!

It is you who is a waste of time because you prove over and over that you cannot understand these simple words of the Lord Jesus!

 

[Cntrysner]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], you say it was possible to receive eternal life before the cross so are you saying that it is the same as the gift of eternal life received after the cross, same promises?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], you say it was possible to receive eternal life before the cross so are you saying that it is the same as the gift of eternal life received after the cross, same promises?

Let us look at the following verse again:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 6:47 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

Of course no one in the Body of Christ will receive an eternal, heavenly, and spiritual body until the following events happen:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

 

[Cntrysner]

Let us look at the following verse again:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 6:47 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

Of course no one in the Body of Christ will receive an eternal, heavenly, and spiritual body until the following events happen:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

Since you're saying they before the cross received eternal life before the blood was applied and with the same promises as those after the cross I ask you to address this scripture and pay attention to the underlined.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since you're saying they before the cross received eternal life before the blood was applied and with the same promises as those after the cross I ask you to address this scripture and pay attention to the underlined.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Why you deny the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews where He said that those who believe already possess eternal life? Why?

With God all things are possible so if He wanted to give eternal life to anyone before the Cross then who are you to say that He couldn't do that? Believe the Lord Jesus because He said that those who believed prior to the Cross possessed eternal life.

 

[Cntrysner]

Why you deny the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews where He said that those who believe already possess eternal life? Why?

With God all things are possible so if He wanted to give eternal life to anyone before the Cross then who are you to say that He couldn't do that? Believe the Lord Jesus because He said that those who believed prior to the Cross possessed eternal life.

I believe Christ, it's your interpretation and how you add your words to His words that I don't believe.

Why won't you be honest and address the scripture I provided and give me your interpretation, that's the method that you constantly demand. Compare scripture with scripture and if they don't agree your interpretation is wrong. So, here they are again and pay attention to the underlined in bold....

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe Christ, it's your interpretation and how you add your words to His words that I don't believe.

No, you don't believe Him and I did not add any words towhat He said here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Here are more of the words of the Lord Jesus which you can deny:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (Jn.5:24).​

The Lord Jesus said "has eternal life," not "will have eternal life."

 

[Cntrysner]

No, you don't believe Him and I did not add any words towhat He said here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Here are more of the words of the Lord Jesus which you can deny:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (Jn.5:24).​

The Lord Jesus said "has eternal life," not "will have eternal life."

There you go again and in your fashion, like a bot, now give me your interpretation of the underlined in bold....

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe Christ, it's your interpretation and how you add your words to His words that I don't believe.

Then give me your interpretion of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Cntrysner]

[MENTION=8028]Jerry[/MENTION] Shugart, also notice the "might" in this verse...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Might is this verse might mean not all, who believed His words before His death , as in called prior to His testament of death or it could mean none before until it was ratified in blood.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe Christ, it's your interpretation and how you add your words to His words that I don't believe.

Then give me your interpretion of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Cntrysner]

Then give me your interpretion of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Believes" would imply by it's plural form a continuation of belief until His work was finished.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Believes" would imply by it's plural form a continuation of belief until His work was finished.

If it takes a continuation of faith to receive eternal life then the Lord Jesus would have said the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes will have eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

But that is not what He actually said. Here is what He actually said:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

The Greek word translated "has" is in the "present" tense which means that at the time a person believes that he "has" or possesses eternal life.

 

[Cntrysner]

If it takes a continuation of faith to receive eternal life then the Lord Jesus would have said the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes will have eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

But that is not what He actually said. Here is what He actually said:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

The Greek word translated "has" is in the "present" tense which means that at the time a person believes that he "has" or possesses eternal life.

What's fair? I addressed your proof text, now address mine, meaning what is in bold.....

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Cntrysner]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], Words have meaning and different words have different meanings in any language but to some though different they mean the same.

Saved doesn't mean eternal life.

Covenant doesn't mean testament.

If you can't distinguish the difference then you have limited understanding and since you hold yourself above most I wanted you to address the meanings of these words that are different.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What's fair? I addressed your proof text, now address mine, meaning what is in bold.....

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The LORD knows that He could give eternal life to believers even before the Cross because He knew that He would redeem the sins of believers who lived before the Cross:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" (Heb.9:15-17).​

Do you think that God lacks the power to give eternal life to believers in every age, even before the Cross, knowing that their sins would be redeemed at the Cross?

In fact, before the Cross the sins of believers were not even imputed to them,as witnessed by what Paul said about David here:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

We also see Peter saying the following:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

Before the Cross the Lord Jesus said the following to a Jewish woman:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

With these things in mind there is absolutely no reason why God couldn't give believers eternal life before the Cross. And we know that before the Cross believers did receive eternal life when they believed, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord and Savior:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

You still have not given an interpretation of the meaning of this verse which makes any sense.

 

[Cntrysner]

The LORD knows that He could give eternal life to believers even before the Cross because He knew that He would redeem the sins of believers who lived before the Cross:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" (Heb.9:15-17).​

Do you think that God lacks the power to give eternal life to believers in every age, even before the Cross, knowing that their sins would be redeemed at the Cross?

In fact, before the Cross the sins of believers were not even imputed to them,as witnessed by what Paul said about David here:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

We also see Peter saying the following:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

Before the Cross the Lord Jesus said the following to a Jewish woman:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

With these things in mind there is absolutely no reason why God couldn't give believers eternal life before the Cross. And we know that before the Cross believers did receive eternal life when they believed, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord and Savior:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

You still have not given an interpretation of the meaning of this verse which makes any sense.

I gave you an interpretation more than once you just reject it. I know you're banned and I hope you're allowed to come back, hope you can still view the forum. Until then because you have been allowed to come back multiple times I will refrain but if you're not allowed I will address your post for the sake of the readers because it matters theologically when eternal life was possible to receive.

 

[Clete]

Saved doesn't mean eternal life.

You'll have to explain this one.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I gave you an interpretation more than once you just reject it. I know you're banned and I hope you're allowed to come back, hope you can still view the forum. Until then because you have been allowed to come back multiple times I will refrain but if you're not allowed I will address your post for the sake of the readers because it matters theologically when eternal life was possible to receive.

Yes, I have was banned for a short period of time. According to your ideas the Lord Jesus should have said the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes will have eternal life."

But that is not what He said. Instead, He told the Jews who lived under the law that upon believing they possessed eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Has" eternal life, not "will have" eternal life.