yes!
ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?
- Thread starter iamaberean
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yes!
Don't aske questions that you already know the answer too.
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Deuteronomy 6:25 Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’
John 15:2a Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
James 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Ezekiel 20:3 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
James 2: 20 & 26 ...faith without works is dead
Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
1 Timothy 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Revelation 2:9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, [g]which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Revelation 2:19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 3:1b “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Revelation 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Deuteronomy 6:25 Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’
John 15:2a Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
James 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Ezekiel 20:3 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
James 2: 20 & 26 ...faith without works is dead
Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
1 Timothy 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Revelation 2:9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, [g]which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Revelation 2:19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 3:1b “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Revelation 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
I could literally go on quoting passages for hours! Starting from Genesis right through Revelation. There is no one anywhere in the bible that teaches salvation apart from works aside from Paul who teaches us that Abraham is the father of TWO groups, not the father of a single group but of TWO GROUPS! One saved by grace through faith plus works (James 2), the other by gracethrough faith only apart from works (Romans 4). But not even Abraham understood that and he certainly didn't preach that nor did anyone else prior to the Apostle Paul, including Jesus Christ Himself, by the way, who, so far as the bible records, never once uttered the word 'grace' during His earthly ministry.
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is what the Savior Himself said to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
He also said that His words are spirit and they are life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
He also told a Jewish woman that it is her faith that saved her:
"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).
Of course you cannot understand the Lord Jesus'words in these verses and that is why you run and hide from them every single time they are presented to you. Paul describes you perfectly here:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
Your problem is that you don't understand salvation on the principle of grace because you speak of "grace through faith plus works" even though Paul makes it plain that if it takes works then that salvation cannot be said to be of grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).
You say that to him that worketh the reward can indeed be reckoned of grace!
You refuse to believe what Paul wrote, that "to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace." And you refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
Did the Lord Jesus just forget to mention "works," big shot?
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You said I was mixing dispensations. I was referring to those that do and defending myself against your accusation. Calm down a touch, I didn't mean to offend you and I did not intend to attack dispensationalism.
I believe everything you just pointed out about dispensationalism. I'm extremely anti-catholic and they mix dispensations and cut Christ in pieces. I am persuaded by Paul's epistles and define my doctrinal belief with Romans thru Philemon.
You are extremely well versed and I appreciate your knowledge. I apologise for offending you!
I'm trying to convey that the Holy Spirit has a vital role in the Gospel and Christ had to ascend in order for the Spirit to descend. Do you believe the Holy Spirit must be involved for one to receive eternal life? Do you believe during the time that Jesus walked this earth the Holy Spirit was not here?
When the word saved is used it can mean many things according to scripture and can mean saved from death.
Sorry, I'll sincerely try to do better.
If the ascension of Christ was required for the Holy Spirit to come to earth and the Holy Spirit is required to receive eternal life then the ascension was required to receive eternal life.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
We must have this witness in us via the Holy Spirit and it required ascension.
To receive eternal life required a continuation of belief as God gave record of His Son and know that the record is complete and if we believe we no longer hope but have confidence and know we have eternal life.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I think we need to know and understand why Christ had to ascend.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Had the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven when He said the following to His disciples?:
"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn.20:22).
Who told you that the third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, is required for anyone to receive eternal life?
Yes, this is the meat of the matter because you grant eternal life to those during the time of the ministry of Christ by mixing dispensations and I say.. no way possible to receive eternal life before His ascension. You disregard the power of the Spirit in your doctrine and blasphemed the Holy Spirit by saying he is not needed for men to understand the full power of the gospel which is the reward or gift of eternal life.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Notice, by the gospel of grace, revealed by Paul, without works in this dispensation are we made heirs or possessors of eternal life and not before. It’s a renewing of the mind and that is not possible without the Holy Spirit.
What role does the Holy Spirit play in God's record of Christ? According Jerry, to receive God's ultimate gift of eternal life you don't need the Holy Spirit. Don't you know Jerry, that during Christ’s ministry the Holy Spirit was not on this earth and had not fell and did not indwell believers?
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
What do you think the living water is that Christ refers to? Who is the Comforter Christ spoke of? The living water and Comforter are the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is required for life eternal and not possible to receive until the Holy Spirit descended at the end of the law for righteousness. During the dispensation of law, meaning while the law was dispensed by God, the Holy Spirit could not fall because Christ had to die for sins to blot out the law, then and only then could the dispensation of grace without law be dispensed by God. What dispenses grace? The Holy Spirit does, and Grace can only come to us after the ascension of Christ. I'll say it another way, Christ is the first fruit of God and no man can spiritually ascended before him and it was a mystery until he did it and it was first revealed by Paul in a way to be understood, even though Christ spoke of eternal life the message was veiled until the veil was rent at His death but still man brings an offering of works. I ask this question, is a man’s faith (what he believes) without the Holy Spirit renewing their mind a work?
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Side note for Clete: …saints arose, Abraham‘s bosom is down.)
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Again., The son of man must be lifted up (ascension) in order to posses eternal life. Do we not have to believe Christ was lifted up?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
If the Holy Spirit does not indwell you then you can not understand eternal life or even begin to process it and certainly not possess it.
Jerry, Christ did breath on them but the Holy Spirit did not fall on them at that time. When the Spirit of Christ did come the first order of business was….
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
The apostles were not outside of this order of business because Jesus said the world…..
…and the Spirit came because of unbelief, that did not happen until the day of Pentecost and the Spirit fell on them. It did not indwell them or seal them but did give them power to further the ministry of who Jesus was with signs and wonders. And what did the apostles teach at Pentecost even though the Holy Ghost fell on them? It was water baptism for remission, the same that the Baptist taught before the cross , which is preparing through works of righteousness a kingdom of priest for an earthly kingdom .
We are sealed by the Spirit in this dispensation of grace for a Spiritual kingdom not of this earth. The Jews require a sign and as a nation are still waiting for a Messiah and the Greeks continue to seek after wisdom but we preach Christ crucified and ascended to the Father.
If a Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of truth they should be at rest and require no sign or continue to seek wisdom concerning the gospel or hope for eternal life but know by the renewing of their mind through the power of the Holy Spirit that they in Christ possess eternal salvation by the record (scripture) that God gave of His Son Jesus. The record is the death, burial, resurrection, and foremost… the ascension of Christ.
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What kind of life was received by the following words of the Lord Jesus before He ascended into heaven?:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
He Himself said that the life is what He called "eternal life":
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
The Lord said those words before He ascended into heaven and the Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present time. That means that the Jews who He addressed who lived under the law had possession of eternal life before He ascended into heaven.
Okay so now you know why you're on ignore. You don't respond to arguments, you don't even seem to comprehend when an argument has been made. All you do is repeat the same old tired nonsense that has already been refuted.
I'll waste no more time with you.
Consider me calmed down.
My apologies for misunderstanding you.
That's excellent. We're going to get along just fine.
Forget about it. It was my fault for jumping to conclusions. I should have asked for a clarification before jumping down your throat.
No. Not in the sense that I think you are suggesting, anyway.
The criminal on the cross went to Paradise with Jesus that very day. Almost none of the Old Testament saints (believers) were filled with the Holy Spirit and they will all live forever on the New Earth (Psalms 37 & Matthew 5:5)
No.
Matthew 1:18-20
Matthew 3:11
Matthew 3:16
Matthew 4:1
Having said that, you're no doubt referring to John 7...
John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
This, of course, is referring to what would happen at Pentecost, which was a Jewish Feast Day. Jesus had went about fulfilling each of the feasts starting with His birth (Tabernacles) then with His death (Passover), three days dead without decay (Unleavened Bread), His resurrection (First Fruits) and then the giving of the Holy Spirit (Weeks / Pentecost). All of these were fulfilled on the very day of the feast. The next would have been the Feast of Trumpets but Israel was cut off for unbelief and so were not given their kingdom as was intended, although they will be given it when God returns again to Israel.
The point here is that the giving of the Spirit at Pentecost was about Israel, not the Body of Christ and so His prior glorification and/or our understanding of it, does not have direct application to today's believer. When we call upon the name of the Lord Jesus and believe that God raised Him from the dead, we are baptized into His Body by the Holy Spirit and that's all there is to it. Under the Dispensation of Grace, there is no such person who is saved outside of faith in Christ nor is there any such person who puts their faith in Christ who is not in Christ and who does not have eternal life.
If A then B
B equals C
Therefore, if A then C
A = Faith in Christ
B = Salvation
C = Eternal Life
I'm not talking about saving someone from drowning in a bathtub! Is it not obvious what we're talking about? We're talking about being saved spiritually! Saved in the sense that we don't go to Hell and get to go to Heaven and spend eternity in the presence of God rather than by ourselves in torment.
Perfectly sound logic if one is a Jew being saved as a Jew under the dispensation of circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9)
Again, you are trying, it seems, to mix dispensations here. John wrote his epistles to circumcision believers (Gal. 2:7-9) and one must keep in mind when reading them that they're reading someone else's mail.
Now, having said that, this passage you quote does not teach the doctrine you're attempt to prop up with it anyway. In other words, regardless of who I John is written to, you're reading your doctrine into the passage.
Now you're really mixing dispensations. This sounds like something right out of one of John MacArthur's books on lordship salvation, which is false doctrine. We are saved because be believe and for no other reason - period and once we are saved we are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is held by us as an earnest payment guaranteeing our deliverance to the Day of Redemption. (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 4:30)
In other words, once saved under Paul's gospel, the only way for you to not be delivered safely to the Day of Redemption would require God to forfeit His own Spirit. But, on the contrary, when we are faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:13)
Well, I don't deny that Jesus' ascension occurred nor do I suggest that it was unimportant. The connections between His ascension and whatever it might be connected to is a perfectly valid thing to study and to try and understand. I wouldn't even go so far as to flat out deny that it was an integral part of the whole process. In fact, it very well may have been. But that is not what I'm conflicted with you on here at all.
My dispute is with the notion that one must understand that such a connection exists in order to be saved and I especially dispute the notion that one can be saved and not have eternal life. Even if you wanted to argue that one can lose their salvation, then what one is losing is eternal life. It is eternal separation from the Father (eternal death) that one is being saved from to begin with.
Clete
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is you who continues to run and hide from the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
Of course you cannot understand His words and that is why you refuse to deal with them. They are above your understanding:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
I challenge you to prove me wrong and you can do that by giving us your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words at John 6:47. In return I will answer any passage which you think proves that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
Are you up to the challenge, big shot?
Like I said, you don't even seem to recognize when an argument has been made. All you can do is repeat yourself no matter how well its been established that your pet proof texts have been divorced from the whole rest of the bible!
Good bye Jerry. I won't be reading any more of your posts, so go ahead and get your last insults in.
There is no reason for you to be provoking other members like this. Knock it off.
There's nothing wrong with challenging other members on their beliefs, but this is too far.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are the one who can't recognize when an argument has been made, not me. I continue to quote the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law to support my argument that those who believed his words were saved by faith apart from works:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
So far you avoid these words of the Lord Jesus like the plague despite the fact that I have quoted them to you many times to support my argument that the Jews who were saved and lived under the law were saved by faith apart from works.
In what way is the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words at John 6:47 changed when we consider the rest of the Scriptures? What He said to the Jews who lived under the law is either true or it is false:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
I say that those words of His are true and they mean exactly what they say. And these words prove that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone.
Despite His clarwords and the cle\ar meaning they convey you continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. But for some reason you continue to refuse to address His words at John 6:47. Why is that?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what I said is too far despite the fact that a certain member said the following to someone who didn't agree with his views?:
"You can't fix stupid!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I don't take orders from someone like you! Prove that you actually believe the Lord Jesus' following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law by giving us your interpretation of the meaning of His words:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
I warned you.
Alright, so I haven't read Jerry's latest post but there's likely no reason for me to do so. It will undoubtedly be him simply repeating the same two or three sentences and insisting that those three sentences undo all the other thousands of sentences throughout the rest of the bible.
What I want to point out with this post is that Jerry isn't alone. His covenant theology has a large following of at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Christians but besides that, he's not alone for another reason....
Jerry shows up here and props up his theology with maybe half a dozen sentences worth of proof texts that he completely divorces from the whole rest of scripture. Now I've had him on ignore for a long long time and so I don't really know when he showed up on this thread with this stuff but I happen to notice it right when I'm in the middle of a discussion that was circling around the issue of doing theology by way of proof-texting and so I decided that Jerry was predictable enough that I could safely use him as an example of just what I've been trying to get across concerning this proof-texting issue. I, therefore, started quoting texts that directly contradict Jerry's doctrine and eventually spent the time it took to collect a list of two dozen proof texts that teach the exact opposite of what Jerry's doctrine is and I could have quoted much much more.
AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT??
The result was that Jerry wasn't moved one single millimeter off his doctrine. He wasn't phased in the slightest! He quotes verses and insists that they mean what they say but when I quote verse that say the opposite, they somehow don't mean what they say. Why? Because they conflict with his doctrine!
And that's what I want you guys to notice! It isn't the texts that are the issue. I can quote texts all day long just exactly the same way Jerry does and what has he got to refute me with? Nothing other than a different set of texts! Why are his pet proof texts more valid than mine? If one does doctrine via proof-texting then there is no answer aside from one's doctrine! Jerry doesn't derive his doctrine from those verse he quotes, he comes to the bible with the doctrine and uses those quotes to prop it up. It's an absolutely upside down and backward way of doing biblical theology.
But like I said, he not alone in this. People who disagree with him have TONS and TONS of proof texts to disprove Jerry and they use them to do exactly that but Jerry is not moved by their proof texts any more than they are moved by his and the reason why is because they BOTH come to the scripture with their doctrine fully formed and then set about finding proof texts with which to prop it up. Only one of the two groups accidentally gets the right answer and neither has the tools necessary to objectively determine which it is.
In short, if you do not understand the plot of the bible, you have little hope of getting the details of your doctrine even half right and the details you do get right will likely be by accident. Fortunately, God was wise enough to make the really critical aspects of the gospel message nearly impossible to miss and so even when people make doctrinal errors, including those who are really radically wrong, like Catholics and Calvinists, they're likely saved in spite of their doctrinal errors. Such is the nature of the dispensation of grace. Praise God.
Clete
[MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION] [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19314]Cntrysner[/MENTION] [MENTION=8445]DAN P[/MENTION] [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]
(I mentioned everyone who's been active on this thread just to be sure you all saw the post not because I'm "aiming" the post at any of you in particular.)
What I want to point out with this post is that Jerry isn't alone. His covenant theology has a large following of at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Christians but besides that, he's not alone for another reason....
Jerry shows up here and props up his theology with maybe half a dozen sentences worth of proof texts that he completely divorces from the whole rest of scripture. Now I've had him on ignore for a long long time and so I don't really know when he showed up on this thread with this stuff but I happen to notice it right when I'm in the middle of a discussion that was circling around the issue of doing theology by way of proof-texting and so I decided that Jerry was predictable enough that I could safely use him as an example of just what I've been trying to get across concerning this proof-texting issue. I, therefore, started quoting texts that directly contradict Jerry's doctrine and eventually spent the time it took to collect a list of two dozen proof texts that teach the exact opposite of what Jerry's doctrine is and I could have quoted much much more.
AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT??
The result was that Jerry wasn't moved one single millimeter off his doctrine. He wasn't phased in the slightest! He quotes verses and insists that they mean what they say but when I quote verse that say the opposite, they somehow don't mean what they say. Why? Because they conflict with his doctrine!
And that's what I want you guys to notice! It isn't the texts that are the issue. I can quote texts all day long just exactly the same way Jerry does and what has he got to refute me with? Nothing other than a different set of texts! Why are his pet proof texts more valid than mine? If one does doctrine via proof-texting then there is no answer aside from one's doctrine! Jerry doesn't derive his doctrine from those verse he quotes, he comes to the bible with the doctrine and uses those quotes to prop it up. It's an absolutely upside down and backward way of doing biblical theology.
But like I said, he not alone in this. People who disagree with him have TONS and TONS of proof texts to disprove Jerry and they use them to do exactly that but Jerry is not moved by their proof texts any more than they are moved by his and the reason why is because they BOTH come to the scripture with their doctrine fully formed and then set about finding proof texts with which to prop it up. Only one of the two groups accidentally gets the right answer and neither has the tools necessary to objectively determine which it is.
In short, if you do not understand the plot of the bible, you have little hope of getting the details of your doctrine even half right and the details you do get right will likely be by accident. Fortunately, God was wise enough to make the really critical aspects of the gospel message nearly impossible to miss and so even when people make doctrinal errors, including those who are really radically wrong, like Catholics and Calvinists, they're likely saved in spite of their doctrinal errors. Such is the nature of the dispensation of grace. Praise God.
Clete
[MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION] [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19314]Cntrysner[/MENTION] [MENTION=8445]DAN P[/MENTION] [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]
(I mentioned everyone who's been active on this thread just to be sure you all saw the post not because I'm "aiming" the post at any of you in particular.)
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, I insist that the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law mean exactly what they say:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
The Savior's words here either mean what they say or they don't. Calling His words in this verse a "proof-text" does not mean we can ignore those words of His and it does not mean that we can change the meaning. The plain meaning of His words make it clear that He was telling the Jews who lived under the law that those of them who believed possessed eternal life apart from works.
And His following words at another place make it plain that spiritual life came upon the Jews who lived under the law by believing His words and works played no part in their receiving spiritual life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Again, calling these verses "proof-texts" does not in any way change the meaning of His words. And I plead guilty of insisting that those words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law mean exactly what they say. Those Jews received spiritual life when they believed His words and "works" played no part in their receiving spiritual life.
I also say that the following words mean exactly what they say:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
If the words of the verses which I quoted in this post do not mean what they say then they must have another meaning. And so far no one has even attempted to give an interpretation of these verses which even hints that the Lord Jesus was not telling the Jews who lived under the law that they were saved by faith alone.
Calling those verses "proof-texts" in no way changes their meaning.