ECT The Dispensationalist Spiritual Transformation and Regeneration Problem

[northwye]

The Dispensationalist Spiritual Transformation and Regeneration Problem

The New Testament places an emphasis upon spiritual transformation and regeneration in order for the individual to be justified, saved from the consequences of sin and to know the Truth, and not to be deceived into accepting false doctrines..

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8: 32

Among those things which you are set free from by spiritual transformation and coming to the knowledge of the Truth, is the danger of falling for false doctrines.

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3: 1-7

Paul in Romans 12: 2 explains more of what being born again means. "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Follow the New Testament strand on transformation in Christ, that is, with Christ in the individual, from John 3: 1-7 - ye must be born again - to Romans 12: 2 - be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind - to Galatians 4: 19 - until Christ be formed in you - then to Philippians 2: 5 - let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus - and to II Corinthians 5: 17 - if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away - then you can see that Tyndale was right. These scriptures by Paul help to define what Christ means in John 3: 1-7 by being born again of the Spirit.

Colossians 1: 27 says "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Being born again by the Spirit and becoming transformed spiritually means that Jesus Christ comes to be in you - which is the hope of glory.

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19: 28

The interest in Matthew 19: 28 is in the word παλιγγενεσια, Strong's Number 3824, "paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal, a new birth."

Look at Titus 3: 5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Regeneration is from "paliggenesia," regeneration, renewal, a new birth.

And renewing is from ανακαινωσεως, anakainósis, renewing, change of heart.

Then I Peter 1: 3 says "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

Begotten is from αναστασεως, Strongs Number 313, anagennao, to begat again.

But dispensationalists do not appear to be very interested in spiritual transformation and regeneration in Christ by the Holy Spirit, at least not on the Christian Forums I have been on.

I remember that about fifty years ago the dispensationalist radio preachers did talk a lot about salvation and the Gospel, and not too much about "rightly dividing" that Gospel, or issues of systematic dispensationalism. But even then they did not emphasize spiritual regeneration as real change in those who accepted Christ.

See: https://www.christforums.com/forums...’-the-‘sinners-prayer’-and-more-antinomianism.

"Here is a partial transcription of RC Sproul Sr’s discussion on dispensationalism and its dangers.

RC. Sproul:

“They asked me, R.C., what’s your problem with dispensationalism? And I said, “You know, my biggest problem with dispensationalism is your historic doctrine of regeneration. And that was met with bewilderment. These professors said, “What are you talking about? What’s our problem with regeneration?”

"I said, “Well, classic dispensationalism teaches that when the Holy Spirit regenerates a person, that person does not experience a change in their nature. So that you can have the Spirit in you, and you be in a state of salvation, without any change in your life whatsoever. And that was popularized by the picture books that were spread out by Campus Crusade, where, you had the circle with the chair, and you had the cross outside the circle, and ‘S’ the self, was on the chair, and that’s the picture of the unregenerate person, the pagan. But then you have the next stage of those who are regenerated, where now, Christ is inside the circle, but not on the throne. Self is still on the throne. You’re saved you’re in a state of grace, you’re regenerated, you’re justified – but you have absolutely no fruit whatsoever because your life hasn’t changed – and that gave rise to the development of this concept of the “Carnal Christian” where a person could be saved without any manifestation of any change, and, that’s what I said, I said for us, regeneration involves a foundational change in the disposition of the human heart where that fallen person prior to his regeneration had no inclination to the things of God, no love for Jesus, and once that heart has been changed, through the immediate, transcendent power of God the Holy Spirit in regeneration, now that person has Christ in his life, and Christ is now his Lord. He’s not perfected, not fully sanctified, but the process of sanctification has certainly begun. And if it hasn’t, you have a profession of faith with no faith."

R.C. Sproul may be following Five Point Calvinism, which I believe is a systematic man made theology of the church system. But what Sproul says above about many dispensationalists not being born again or really changed by the Gospel of Christ is true.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But what Sproul says above about many dispensationalists not being born again or really changed by the Gospel of Christ is true.

Sproul knows nothing about regeneration so his opinion is worthless. He teaches that regeneration precedes faith which is ridiculous.

Besides that, I see no evidence that you are born again because you can't even understand this simple promise which the LORD made to David concerning the children of Israel and the promised land:

"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:10).​

That's not exactly rocket science but it is way, way above your understanding.

 

[northwye]

Another tactic of the dialectic is to sidestep the focus of a thesis by the opponent and try to place the focus upon something else, along with making personal attacks upon the opponent.

 

[Jason0047]

Another tactic of the dialectic is to sidestep the focus of a thesis by the opponent and try to place the focus upon something else, along with making personal attacks upon the opponent.

I agree with what you said. Thank you for posting what you did. Even some Calvinists (Who are in error for believing in Calvinism) can recognize the problem in the popular Christian's view on regeneration. For many in Christianity today think that you can sin and still be saved on some level as long as you believe in Jesus. Yet, Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not what I say? (Luke 6:46).

Side Note 1:

However, I have run into some Calvinists who teach that they can sin and still be saved. So these types of Calvinists have a similar view as many Non-Calvinists.

Side Note 2:

Oh, and Dispensationalism is not an exclusive problem to the topic of the necessity of Sanctification being a part of the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and believing in His death and resurrection). I believe in Dispensationalism and yet I do not adhere to the popular Christian view on Soteriology. I am not Catholic, or Orthodox. I am a Sola Scriptura non-denominational Christian who believes in the Trinity.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Another tactic of the dialectic is to sidestep the focus of a thesis by the opponent and try to place the focus upon something else, along with making personal attacks upon the opponent.

It's not a personal attack but instead my opinion. Just like you have an opinion that most dispensationalts are not born again I am of the opinion that you are not born again. If you were born again you could understand what the LORD promised David has not yet been fulfilled:

"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:10).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For many in Christianity today think that you can sin and still be saved on some level as long as you believe in Jesus.

So you haven't sinned since you believed?

The Apostle John sure didn't think that if a Christian sinned he would lose his salvation (1 Jn.1:9).

Why do you?

 

[Jason0047]

So you haven't sinned since you believed?

It is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).

The Apostle John sure didn't think that if a Christian sinned he would lose his salvation (1 Jn.1:9).

Yes, he did. John said "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

You cannot be saved and have sins that are unforgiven.

Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you (Matthew 6:15).

Jesus essentially says if you look upon a woman in lust your whole body can be destroyed in hell fire (See: Matthew 5:28-30).

John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15).

And that is not even the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, he did. John said "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

Yes, those words were addressed to those who had already received eternal life. So if they confessed their sins they remained saved.

You said if a Christian sins he loses his salvation.

For many in Christianity today think that you can sin and still be saved on some level as long as you believe in Jesus.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, those words were addressed to those who had already received eternal life. So if they confessed their sins they remained saved.

You said if a Christian sins he loses his salvation.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

So one sin causes a Christian to lose his salvation? This is what you said earlier:

For many in Christianity today think that you can sin and still be saved on some level as long as you believe in Jesus.

Please clarify. If I sin do I lose my salvation? And if your answer is "yes" tell me why John told Christians that if they confess that sin they will be cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 Jn.1:9). That doesn't sound like John was telling anyone that when they sin they lose their salvation.

 

[Jason0047]

So one sin causes a Christian to lose his salvation? This is what you said earlier:



Please clarify. If I sin do I lose my salvation? And if your answer is "yes" tell me why John told Christians that if they confess that sin they will be cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 Jn.1:9). That doesn't sound like John was telling anyone that when they sin they lose their salvation.

It's because you are focusing a laser beam on that verse based on a presuppositional belief. What does 1 John 3:15 mean to you? What about Adam and Eve? Did they not die spiritually by their one time sin?

1 John 1:9 is conditional. IF....IF you confess your sins you are forgiven and cleansed of unrighteousness. If you are cleansed of unrighteousness, then you should never sin again, right?
So if confession of sins only needs to be done one time. You are forever cleansed of unrighteousness and you will never sin again. But surely you do not believe that.

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying you have to confess in order to be forgiven.
Forgiveness is tied to salvation.
So salvation is conditioned upon us confessing sins, and it is also conditioned upon forsaking sin (See 1 John 1:7).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying you have to confess in order to be forgiven.
Forgiveness is tied to salvation.
So salvation is conditioned upon us confessing sins, and it is also conditioned upon forsaking sin (See 1 John 1:7).

No, the remission of sins for salvation is conditioned on believing (Acts 10:43).

Confessing one's sin is in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).
​

If a person is saved then he has his sins forgiven and he is saved by faith apart from confessing his sins:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

The Lord Jesus said the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Jason0047]

No, the remission of sins for salvation is conditioned on believing (Acts 10:43).

Confessing one's sin is in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).
​

If a person is saved then he has his sins forgiven and he is saved by faith apart from confessing his sins:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

The Lord Jesus said the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Nowhere does he Bible teach that you can be saved without having your sins forgiven.
John's 1st epistle teaches that you if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).
John's 1st epistle teaches that if do not righteousness, we are not of God (1 John 3:10).
John's 1st epistle teaches that if you need to have the Son in order to have life (1 John 5:12).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nowhere does he Bible teach that you can be saved without having your sins forgiven.

I never said that. Instead I said:

The remission of sins for salvation is conditioned on believing (Acts 10:43).

Confessing one's sin is in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).
​

If a person is saved then he has his sins forgiven and he is saved by faith apart from confessing his sins:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

The Lord Jesus said the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Instead of actually addressing these points you misrepresented what I said and then run off to other verses which you do not understand.

 

[glorydaz]

It's because you are focusing a laser beam on that verse based on a presuppositional belief. What does 1 John 3:15 mean to you? What about Adam and Eve? Did they not die spiritually by their one time sin?

1 John 1:9 is conditional. IF....IF you confess your sins you are forgiven and cleansed of unrighteousness. If you are cleansed of unrighteousness, then you should never sin again, right?
So if confession of sins only needs to be done one time. You are forever cleansed of unrighteousness and you will never sin again. But surely you do not believe that.

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying you have to confess in order to be forgiven.
Forgiveness is tied to salvation.
So salvation is conditioned upon us confessing sins, and it is also conditioned upon forsaking sin (See 1 John 1:7).

Ah, now I remember you. When you see the word IF, you know you are dealing with the LAW.

John went to the Jews...they were people of the Law.

We are no longer under the law but under grace, having been delivered for the law (and all it's IF's).