ECT Did the "Eternal Word" merge with a newly created human mind, will, and emotions?

[Jason0047]

He did in His deity. Being ONE with the Father.

Jesus speaks of His "Father" in His humanity.

I believe Jesus is speaking as the Eternal Logos when He says that He is one with the Father.

In being objective: The best verses against what I believe are Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:5. But these can be reconciled by the simple fact that it is talking about the "Word made flesh" (or the Word in incarnate form or being within a human body - limited in knowledge overall).

 

[Jason0047]

Even though the Lord Jesus said that "only" the Father knows and that no "man" knows the day and the hour you say that the Son knows:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).​

According to you the Lord Jesus knew the day and hour in His deity even though we read this about Him:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​

The Lord Jesus said that no man knows the day and the hour but the Father ONLY but you say that the Son also knew.

Yes, I agree. I also believe Jesus did not know the day or the hour of His own return. This was knowledge that was clearly suppressed for the Eternal Logos in incarnate form.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not to get side tracked, but if you are truly interested, the following article was revolutionary in my thinking on these two pieces of Scripture.

This is what we read in the article:

"Passover is the First Day of Unleavened Bread"​

The Passover was a memorial to the night when the LORD passed over the blood stained houses in Egypt (Ex.12:13-14).

The feast of unleavened bread was a memorial of the time when the Israelites were brought out of the land of Egypt (Ex.12:17).

The Passover was celebrated on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).

The feast of unleavened bread began on the next day, the 15th:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​

So if words have any meaning then it is obvious that the first day of the feast of unleavened bread did not precede the passover so it is clear that the folllowing translation from the KJV is in error:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Mt.26:17; KJV).​

 

[Jason0047]

If He still retained His omniscience, as it seems to me He did, then He would know all things, and understand that it was wrong to desire what was not His to have. The fact that He was God living as a human being, left Him with the full picture that we as mere humans don't have. We have a taste of it in our consciences, but not the knowledge that our Lord had as our Creator.

I used to believe in a similar way. But Luke 2:52, and Matthew 24:36 were most troubling for me to reconcile. Especially Luke 2:52. It says Jesus grew in wisdom. It is not possible for Jesus to have full use of His Omniscience (unsuppressed) and yet also grow in wisdom (Which is knowledge). In John 17:5, I believe Jesus refers to a glory that He once shared with the Father before the world began.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5).

I believe this glory is in reference to the "glory of the knowledge of the Lord."

For it is written:

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Another place in Scripture that alludes to Jesus suppressing His Omniscience can be found with Adam. In Romans 5:14 NLT says Adam is a symbol or representation of Christ.

"Still, everyone died--from the time of Adam to the time of Moses--even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come." (Romans 5:14) (NLT).

How is Christ a representation of Adam? See #7 on my 1st list below.

Ways Jesus and Adam are alike:

#1 Adam and Jesus are both sons of God (Who directly created physically in some way by God).
#2. Adam and Jesus both are representatives of a certain people group.
#3. Adam and Jesus both are supposed to have dominion over the Earth.
#4. Adam and Jesus both have brides (Jesus' bride is the Church).
#5. Both Adam and Jesus' destiny for man involved a tree (The cross is referred to as a Tree in the NT).
#6. Adam and Jesus both take on sin in a garden
(Jesus took on our sins within the cup at Gethsemane).
#7. Both Adam and Jesus are limited in knowledge for a certain amount of time.

Ways Jesus and Adam are a contrast to one another:

#1. Adam is of the Earth. ~ (but) ~ Jesus is the Lord from Heaven.
#2. Adam is natural. ~ (but) ~ Jesus is spiritual.
#3. Adam was created as a living soul. ~ (but) ~ Jesus was created to be a life giving Spirit.
#4. Adam brought death ~ (but) ~ Jesus brought life.
(For by one many shall die and by one many shall live).
#.5. Adam is of the old world of death. ~ (but) ~ Jesus is of the new world of life (with no death).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Second, if Jesus is worshiped as GOD, then that disqualifies Him in fully being a man because man is not to be worshiped as GOD because man is limited and only a created being. For Jesus says, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Luke 4:8).

So the Lord Jesus was not fully man?

Only partially?

 

[Jason0047]

So the Lord Jesus was not fully man?

Only partially?

Yes, He only was made "like" unto his brethren (Hebrews 2:17). He was tempted "like" as we are, but He was without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Jesus his holy, undefiled, and separate from sinners (Hebrews 7:26). In "all things" he was made like unto His brethren by the fact that He had:

(a) Physical flesh and blood body that came from Adam (yet without the curse of sin on it because He was born by way of a virgin; Note: Sin is past down by the male seed. For in Adam all die).

(b) Limited in knowledge (Note: Jesus' divine attribute of Omniscience was generally suppressed; And He only had divine knowledge as given to Him for certain specific purposes in showing that He was God).​

It would have served no purpose to have a created human mind, will, and emotions if His divine knowledge was simply suppressed overall (or most of the time). Jesus would have thought, acted, and felt based on limited knowledge as a human would. So no human soul was required so as to merge with it.

The problem with adding a newly created mind, will, and emotions to the "Eternal Logos" (Who is the second person of the Trinity) is that it conflicts with our worship of God alone. We are told by Jesus that we are to worship God alone and serve Him only (Luke 4:8). A newly created human soul (or a newly created human mind, will, and emotions) is not God and this part of Jesus would conflict in our worship of Him. We would in part be worshiping the creation and not the Creator. Therein lies yet another problem with the HU (Hypostatic Union).

 

[Jason0047]

This is what we read in the article:

"Passover is the First Day of Unleavened Bread"​

The Passover was a memorial to the night when the LORD passed over the blood stained houses in Egypt (Ex.12:13-14).

The feast of unleavened bread was a memorial of the time when the Israelites were brought out of the land of Egypt (Ex.12:17).

The Passover was celebrated on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).

The feast of unleavened bread began on the next day, the 15th:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​

So if words have any meaning then it is obvious that the first day of the feast of unleavened bread did not precede the passover so it is clear that the folllowing translation from the KJV is in error:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Mt.26:17; KJV).​

Read the article please and try to keep an open mind. If not, then it is not worth my time to discuss such a thing.

If you do decide to discuss it after reading the article, please create another thread.

Thank you, and may God bless you this fine day.

 

[Right Divider]

#3. Adam was created as a living soul. ~ (but) ~ Jesus was created to be a life giving Spirit.

Completely wrong.

Being God, Jesus was already "the way, the truth and the life".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In "all things" he was made like unto His brethren by the fact that He had:

Physical flesh and blood body that came from Adam (yet without the curse of sin on it because He was born by way of a virgin; Note: Sin is past down by the male seed. For in Adam all die).

A person's physical body has the curse of sin on it despite the fact that man is made in the image of God? David didn't seem to think that his body was flawed in any way:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

According to you even though the Bible states that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" His body was perfect while His brethren's bodies were cursed with sin.

The problem with adding a newly created mind, will, and emotions to the "Eternal Logos" (Who is the second person of the Trinity) is that it conflicts with our worship of God alone.

If you are right then why was the Lord Jesus' will different from the Father's will at one point in time (Mt.26:39)?

If you do decide to discuss it after reading the article, please create another thread.

Will you participate if I do start a thread?

 

[Jason0047]

Completely wrong.

Being God, Jesus was already "the way, the truth and the life".

These are not my words, but they are the words of Scripture,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
(1 Corinthians 15:45).

Side Note:

Oh, and I am not saying (nor is the Bible) saying that Christ was not always the way, the truth, and the life.
The Eternal Logos (JESUS) was always GOD, and was always light, and life, and salvation.

The word "made" in 1 Corinthians 15:45 would be in reference to Christ's physical body or the Last Adam (i.e. the Word made flesh). The Last Adam was made. Jesus. The Incarnation. This Last Adam was made (physically with real flesh and blood from the DNA of Mary). Made physically as a man to naturally be the life giving spirit that the Eternal Logos is and always was.

 

[Right Divider]

These are not my words, but they are the words of Scripture,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
(1 Corinthians 15:45).

Side Note:

Oh, and I am not saying (nor is the Bible) saying that Christ was not always the way, the truth, and the life.
The Eternal Logos (JESUS) was always GOD, and was always light, and life, and salvation.

The word "made" in 1 Corinthians 15:45 would be in reference to Christ's physical body or the Last Adam (i.e. the Word made flesh). The Last Adam was made. Jesus. The Incarnation. This Last Adam was made (physically with real flesh and blood from the DNA of Mary). Made physically as a man to naturally be the life giving spirit that the Eternal Logos is and always was.

That is a very convoluted idea. Too much reading books about the Bible will do that do you.

Further on in that passage we find that Jesus is the Lord from heaven and that has nothing to do with His earthly incarnation.

The Spirit of Christ is God and therefore is and always has been the giver of life.

Your idea that some of His deity was somehow suppressed during His incarnation is just a very silly idea.

One poster here thinks that Jesus was 0% deity while on earth (even though they believe that He was 100% deity in heaven before His incarnation). What percent do you believe that He was, 95%... 90%... ?%?

 

[Jason0047]

A person's physical body has the curse of sin on it despite the fact that man is made in the image of God? David didn't seem to think that his body was flawed in any way:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

According to you even though the Bible states that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things" His body was perfect while His brethren's bodies were cursed with sin.

Yes, I believe that in Adam, we all die.

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14).
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;" (Romans 5:17).
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;" (Romans 5:18).
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
(1 Corinthians 15:20-22).

David said,
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalms 51:5).

David also said,
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Psalms 58:3).

Solomon said,
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."(Proverbs 22:15).

God says,
"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;" (Genesis 8:21).

If you are right then why was the Lord Jesus' will different from the Father's will at one point in time (Mt.26:39)?

Well, Jesus will is not in rebellion against the Father here. For if Jesus's will was truly different than the Father's will, then Jesus would not be in obedience to the Father. Jesus says that He always did everything that pleases His Father (See John 8:29). So Jesus was not expressing a will that was contrary to the Father. Jesus merely was speaking from the perspective of His limited Omniscience (that was suppressed). He was asking, and then He quickly knew (probably by the Father) that taking on the sins of the world (within the cup) and going to the cross was still indeed the will of the Father and the only way to pay the price for man's sins. See, Jesus was not trying to get out of redeeming mankind. He simply was asking if there was another way. Jesus spoke this way because His Omniscience (as the Logos) was suppressed before the world began (long before the Incarnation). For Jesus prayed to God the Father in John 17:5 so as to share again in the glory that He once had with God the Father. I believe this is the glory of the knowledge of the Lord (i.e. Christ's Omniscience - See again: Habakkuk 2:14, and 2 Corinthians 4:6). Also Christ was a like figure or parallel of Adam who was also limited in knowledge until after the Fall (Note: To witness how Adam is called a symbol or representation of Christ, see Romans 5:14 NLT; Simply click on the verse to check it out).

If you do decide to discuss it after reading the article, please create another thread.

Will you participate if I do start a thread?

Only if you read the article with an open mind... yes.

 

[Jason0047]

That is a very convoluted idea. Too much reading books about the Bible will do that do you.

That's a wrong assumption, my friend.
I do not read tons of Christian books.
I prefer to study Scripture looking at the context and by praying, and by verifying with cross references and more prayer. Sometimes I occasionally check out articles if I run into a truly challenging verse or passage, but many times I talk it over with God in the privacy of my own residence.

Further on in that passage we find that Jesus is the Lord from heaven and that has nothing to do with His earthly incarnation.

The Spirit of Christ is God and therefore is and always has been the giver of life.

Perhaps this would be best cleared up if you gave me a word for word commentary on the last part of 1 Corinthians 15:45 that says, "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Explain each word and what it means in this verse.

How was the last Adam made a quickening spirit?

Your idea that some of His deity was somehow suppressed during His incarnation is just a very silly idea.

There are three pieces of Scripture that allude to Christ suppressing His divine attribute of Omniscience. The first one is in John 17:5. Jesus says, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Habakkuk 2:14 talks about how the glory of the Lord is knowledge (Also see 2 Corinthians 4:6).

The other two points in Scripture can be found with Adam and Samson. In Romans 5:14 NLT says Adam is a symbol or representation of Christ and then check out #7 on the 1st list below.

So what ways are Adam and Jesus alike?

#1 Adam and Jesus are both sons of God (Who directly created physically in some way by God).
#2. Adam and Jesus both are representatives of a certain people group.
#3. Adam and Jesus both are supposed to have dominion over the Earth.
#4. Adam and Jesus both have brides (Jesus' bride is the Church).
#5. Both Adam and Jesus' destiny for man involved a tree (The cross is referred to as a Tree in the NT).
#6. Adam and Jesus both take on sin in a garden
(Jesus took on our sins within the cup at Gethsemane).
#7. Both Adam and Jesus are limited in knowledge for a certain amount of time.

As for Samson: Well, I believe there are similarities between Samson and Jesus that answer my point above. Please see #2.

#1. Samson and Jesus both were humiliated in front of others as a public display.
#2. Samson and Jesus both were blind in some way. (Jesus was blinded to to having all knowledge).
#3. Samson and Jesus both outstretched their arms so as to save their people & defeat evil.

One poster here thinks that Jesus was 0% deity while on earth (even though they believe that He was 100% deity in heaven before His incarnation). What percent do you believe that He was, 95%... 90%... ?%?

Right, and they would be wrong for thinking that Jesus is 0% deity.
Jesus is 100% deity.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

For in "him" [i.e. the Word made flesh] dwells all the fulness of the Trinity within the body of the Logos.

 

[Right Divider]

Right, and they would be wrong for thinking that Jesus is 0% deity.
Jesus is 100% deity.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

For in "him" [i.e. the Word made flesh] dwells all the fulness of the Trinity within the body of the Logos.

And yet you think that SOME of this fullness was not full.

It says ALL THE FULLNESS, not 98%.

Just a note: When a very few verses of scripture "seem" to be at odds with the rest of scripture, don't put too much weigh on what "seems" to be.

 

[Jason0047]

And yet you think that SOME of this fullness was not full.

It says ALL THE FULLNESS, not 98%.

Just a note: When a very few verses of scripture "seem" to be at odds with the rest of scripture, don't put too much weigh on what "seems" to be.

How do you think that I believe it is 98%? I believe that the fulness (100%) of the Godhead or the Trinity (all three persons) in substance dwelled within the Word made flesh. All three members of the Godhead dwelled at full capacity within the "Word made flesh."

Christ's Omniscience being suppressed (before the foundation of the world) does not mean that the Eternal Logos was not fully dwelling at 100% capacity when the Eternal Logos was made flesh.

For example: I can be 100% human and have my own eyes or eye sight, and yet, I can wear a blind fold to suppress my eyesight. It does not mean my eyes or my eyesight is gone. It is merely suppressed.

 

[Idolater]

How do you think that I believe it is 98%? I believe that the fulness (100%) of the Godhead or the Trinity (all three persons) in substance dwelled within the Word made flesh. All three members of the Godhead dwelled at full capacity within the "Word made flesh."

Christ's Omniscience being suppressed (before the foundation of the world) does not mean that the Eternal Logos was not fully dwelling at 100% capacity when the Eternal Logos was made flesh.

'Last I knew Jason0047, you didn't identify as Trinitarian, have you changed your view in the past few years? It's fine either way, I'm just curious.

 

[Jason0047]

'Last I knew Jason0047, you didn't identify as Trinitarian, have you changed your view in the past few years? It's fine either way, I'm just curious.

You must have me confused with someone else. I have always believed in the Trinity. I believe the Lord our God is one God who exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost - See: 1 John 5:7).

 

[Right Divider]

How do you think that I believe it is 98%? I believe that the fulness (100%) of the Godhead or the Trinity (all three persons) in substance dwelled within the Word made flesh. All three members of the Godhead dwelled at full capacity within the "Word made flesh."

It's just a number (as an example) that I picked out of thin air. You were claiming that Jesus was not fully omniscient, so I'm asking what percentage of His deity was supposedly suppressed. (Whatever that nonsense means).

Christ's Omniscience being suppressed (before the foundation of the world) does not mean that the Eternal Logos was not fully dwelling at 100% capacity when the Eternal Logos was made flesh.

You just get crazier and crazier.

Now this supposed suppression started before the foundation of the world? Where do you get this silliness?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, I believe that in Adam, we all die.

That is not what Paul wrote. Instead, he wrote that all die because all have sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

When a person sins he dies spiritually so spiritual death passed upon all men because all have sinned. In order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually. The only way that all who sin can be alive spiritually is because they all emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

And that explains why David said the following:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

David said,
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalms 51:5).

First of all, are we to take what David said here in a "literal" sense even though the Scriptures reveal that people are made in the likeness of God?

In this passage David was using figurative language while confessing to the LORD his deep sense of guilt for his sin. When we examine the context where David speaks of being conceived in sin we see that David employed figurative language numerous times, or else we must believe that God breaks the bones of people when they sin or that the broken bones rejoice when forgiven.

Despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus made like His brethren "in all things" you say that David was shapen in iniquity and conceived with a sin nature. That means that the Lord Jesus was not made like His brethren "in all things."

Only if you read the article with an open mind... yes.

I will approach what is said in the article to see if what is said there is according to the Scriptures or not. Is that approach acceptable to you?

 

[Jason0047]

It's just a number (as an example) that I picked out of thin air. You were claiming that Jesus was not fully omniscient, so I'm asking what percentage of His deity was supposedly suppressed. (Whatever that nonsense means).

You think it is in reference to divine attributes or power, when in reality is talking "ontologically" (i.e. the substance and or core being of God's existence).

You just get crazier and crazier.


Now this supposed suppression started before the foundation of the world? Where do you get this silliness?

In John 17:5, Jesus says to God the Father,
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5).

I believe this glory is in reference to the "glory of the knowledge of the Lord."

For it is written:
"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).