ECT The Timing of the Rapture and the Hebrew Epistles

[Jerry Shugart]

Are ye daft man?

No, you are.

You keep claiming that the prophecy lists six promises that God will do, when the prophecy is listing six tasks that God has set for the children of Israel to do.

It is the LORD God who determines when the following will happen:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Heb.9:24; KJV).​

"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place" (Dan.9:24; NIV).​

You are mistaken when you assert that these verses are speaking about what the Israelites were to do. As I said, these things which will happen at the end of the 490 years are in regard to the promise which the LORD made to David:

"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:10).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is the LORD God who determines when the following will happen:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Heb.9:24; KJV).​

"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place" (Dan.9:24; NIV).​

Yes the LORD God determined that the children of Israel were to be given 490 years to do six tasks.
That time ran out in 34 CE, right after Stephen was stoned to death.

Those are not promises, they are tasks.

You are mistaken when you assert that these verses are speaking about what the Israelites were to do. As I said, these things which will happen at the end of the 490 years are in regard to the promise which the LORD made to David:

"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:10).​

I am not mistaken.
That promise does not change the tasks that the children of Israel were given in the seventy week prophecy.
The fulfillment of that promise can only happen after the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, but the Olivet Discourse prophecy of the great tribulation is about a long (2000 year or more) period of Jerusalem being desolate.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes the LORD God determined that the children of Israel were to be given 490 years to do six tasks.

That is not what Daniel 9:24 says. Instead, the LORD determined that at 490 years these things would happen:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Heb.9:24; KJV).​

All you are doing is adding words to the verse which are not there. Anyone can make the Bible say whatever he wants it to say by using your method of interpretation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is not what Daniel 9:24 says. Instead, the LORD determined that at 490 years these things would happen:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Heb.9:24; KJV).​

All you are doing is adding words to the verse which are not there. Anyone can make the Bible say whatever he wants it to say by using your method of interpretation.

I am not doing that, you are.

Daniel 9:24 states that 490 years are decreed for the children of Israel TO DO the six tasks.

Daniel 9:24 NIV 24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.​

What do you think "for your people ... to finish transgression" means?
You switch it around and add words to make it say "God will finish transgression for your people" as if it is something God alone is responsible for doing instead of what the verse actually says, "for your people ... to finish transgression", which makes it a task that the children of Israel are responsible for doing.

The seventy weeks prophecy was given as an answer to Daniel's prayer, which includes:

Daniel 9:11 NIV 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.​

This is the transgression that the children of Israel, Daniel's people, were given 490 years to put an end to (finish).

Daniel 9:24 LEB 24 “Seventy weeks is decreed for your people and for your holy city, to put an end to the transgression and to seal up sin and to make atonement for guilt and to bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal vision and prophet and to anoint the most holy place.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am not doing that, you are.

Please quote just one recognized Bible scholar who agrees with your interpretation of Daniel 9:24.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Please quote just one recognized Bible scholar who agrees with your interpretation of Daniel 9:24.

Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject. Whether the person is actually an authority or not, the logic is unsound. Instead of presenting actual evidence, the argument just relies on the credibility of the "authority."

​

The scholars you are relying upon are determined to stick a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of the prophecy for no reason at all, so you shouldn't rely upon scholars to tell you what to think.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Daniel 9:24 states that 490 years are decreed for the children of Israel TO DO the six tasks.

You just made that up because that is never said at Daniel 9:24. Besides that, how were the Israelites in Jerusalem going to fulfill the following in "bold" at a time when their enemies gave them no peace?:

"'Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place" (Dan.9:24).​

The LORD decreed that it will happen in 490 years and only He has the power to accomplish bringing into Jerusalem everlasting righteousness. And the Lord promised David that it will happen:

"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:10).​

According to your mistaken idea the Israelites were given the task of bringing unto Jerusalem everlasting righteousness even though their enemies would give them no peace. The LORD did not give them a task which was impossible for them to perform.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You just made that up because that is never said at Daniel 9:24.

No, what I said is exactly what Daniel 9:24 says, you just have been taught to ignore the plain interpretation in favor of a twisted one.

Besides that, how were the Israelites in Jerusalem going to fulfill the following in "bold" at a time when their enemies gave them no peace?:

"'Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place" (Dan.9:24).​

The prophecy of the seventy "weeks" was an answer to Daniel's prayer about the desolation of Jerusalem that he had read about in Jeremiah, so you have to go back to the prayer of Daniel and the book of Jeremiah for the answer.
In Jeremiah the Lord said that Jerusalem was made desolate because the children of Israel were not executing judgment and righteousness.
"evelasting" righteousness is merely start doing no wrong and continue to do no wrong.

Jeremiah 22:3-5 3 Thus saith the Lord; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place. 4 For if ye do this thing indeed, then shall there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people. 5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.​

The LORD decreed that it will happen in 490 years and only He has the power to accomplish bringing into Jerusalem everlasting righteousness.

God will not force His chosen people to be righteous.
According to His Word, God will exile His chosen people from the land unless they choose to do what is right.
Any god that would force His chosen people to be righteous is not the God of the Bible.

According to your mistaken idea the Israelites were given the task of bringing unto Jerusalem everlasting righteousness even though their enemies would give them no peace.

Whether they had an enemy troubling them or not has nothing to do with whether they are able to do what is right.
Doing what is right even in troubling times is a sign of true righteousness, not the fake righteousness that is only seen when everything goes well for you.

James 1:2-4 2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.​

The LORD did not give them a task which was impossible for them to perform.

I agree that it was not an impossible task, the LORD gave them the exact same task that He had given to them in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, what I said is exactly what Daniel 9:24 says, you just have been taught to ignore the plain interpretation in favor of a twisted one.

Exactly who determined that these things would happen after the 70th week of years?:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

The Hebrew word translated "determined" means "to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out."

Of course the LORD God determined or decreed that these things would happen at the end of the 70th week of years. In other words, it was "settled" and "marked out" that these things will happen at the end of the 70th week of years.

According to you it was never settled and the LORD was wrong.

Now let's get back to the subject of this thread. When do you think that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

Are you Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trib?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Exactly who determined that these things would happen after the 70th week of years?:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

The Hebrew word translated "determined" means "to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out."

Of course the LORD God determined or decreed that these things would happen at the end of the 70th week of years.

Not quite.
The LORD God determined the number of years that He would give the children of Israel to repent of their disobedience.

In other words, it was "settled" and "marked out" that these things will happen at the end of the 70th week of years.

You seem to be going farther and farther from the plain words of scripture.
The verse is not making any claim that it was "settled" and "marked out" that certain things will happen.
The verse is making the statement that there is a certain number of years that have been "marked out" and then states that the those years are for the children of Israel to do certain things.

According to you it was never settled and the LORD was wrong.

Not quite.
According to me it is your interpretation that is wrong.
The LORD was not wrong in setting out 490 years for the children of Israel to repent, since that matches exactly with the seven fold increase to the prior punishment as prophesied in Leviticus 26.

Now let's get back to the subject of this thread. When do you think that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

Revelation 11:11-12 shows the dead in Christ being raised from the dead and ascending to meet Him in the clouds in fulfillment of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
This same event is also shown in Revelation 14:14-16, which is the harvest of the saints at the end of the age.

Are you Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trib?

Neither.
There is no seven year tribulation.

I believe the scriptures are clear that the Resurrection of the saints happens at the time of the visible return of Jesus coming in the clouds.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not quite.
The LORD God determined the number of years that He would give the children of Israel to repent of their disobedience.

The Lord DETERMINED that it would happen at 70 weeks of years:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

Anyone who can read plain English can see that there are no conditions attached to the statement and therefore it is obvious that this verse is an "unconditional" statement. But since those words contradict your mistaken views you just add words are not there.

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which he wants it to say by using your method. I will give you the last word on this subject but nothing you can possibly say will make the statement a "conditional" one instead of an "unconditional" one.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Lord DETERMINED that it would happen at 70 weeks of years:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

No, the LORD determined that the children of Israel would have 490 years to repent.

Anyone who can read plain English can see that there are no conditions attached to the statement and therefore it is obvious that this verse is an "unconditional" statement.

You are misunderstanding the words that are there.
The "condition" is found in a later verse:

Daniel 9:27 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

For the overspreading of abominations, God would make Jerusalem desolate.
If the children of Israel had repented by the end of the 490 years given to them, then there wouldn't be any overspreading of abominations to give God a reason to make Jerusalem desolate.

 

[iamaberean]

The Lord's words at Matthew 24 were in answer to what would happen at the "end of the age" (Mt.24:3).

This end of the age has not yet happened because the Lord Jesus earlier spoke about what would happen at the end of the age and He said that then there will be a world harvest where all the unbelievers on the face of the earth (Mt.13:37-43).

There are two ages spoken of in the Bible. Age of Law and then the Church Age.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The rapture and the end of the age of Law came when Jesus was crucified.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The church age will come to an end when God takes the tares, wicked ones - children of the devil, out of this world and burns them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are two ages spoken of in the Bible. Age of Law and then the Church Age.

So you don't have a "kingdom age" in your eschatology?

Will the Lord Jesus not sit upon His throne and reign from that throne when He returns to the earth to usher in the kingdom age?:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​