ECT Suggestion to Knight

[Jerry Shugart]

A great topic for the Battle Royale Center Ring is a debate on the theory of Original Sin.

That theory is so easy to disprove but many Christians still cling to that theory which was formulated in the Dark Ages.

That theory makes the LORD out to be a Tyrant who makes people opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI;4) and then He punishes them for doing the very thing which He designed them to do.

I am ready to get in on if you can just find a person who will defend the theory. Or perhaps you might be up to the task?

There is no doubt that kind of debate will be of interest to a lot of people on this forum.

 

[patrick jane]

A great topic for the Battle Royale Center Ring is a debate on the theory of Original Sin.

That theory is so easy to disprove but many Christians still cling to that theory which was formulated in the Dark Ages.

That theory makes the LORD out to be a Tyrant who makes people opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil (Westminster Confession of Faith; VI;4) and then He punishes them for doing the very thing which He designed them to do.

I am ready to get in on if you can just find a person who will defend the theory. Or perhaps you might be up to the task?

There is no doubt that kind of debate will be of interest to a lot of people on this forum.

What's the alternative to the original sin?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What's the alternative to the original sin?

That all people die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin, as the advocates of the theory Original Sin teach. Let's look at the following verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

The quickening which is "together with him" can only be in regard to a giving of spiritual life. That means that the death in this verse is spiritual death. So people do not die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin but because of their own sin.

And since all people die spiritually because they sin then that means that all people were alive spiritually prior to sinning. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. And the only way that can happen is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

The proponents of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

 

[tdhiggins]

Which is what David says in Ps. 51:5: in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[patrick jane]

That all people die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin, as the advocates of the theory Original Sin teach. Let's look at the following verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

The quickening which is "together with him" can only be in regard to a giving of spiritual life. That means that the death in this verse is spiritual death. So people do not die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin but because of their own sin.

And since all people die spiritually because they sin then that means that all people were alive spiritually prior to sinning. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. And the only way that can happen is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

The proponents of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

You're ignoring WHY we're spiritually dead to begin with imo. Why we sin to begin with. I'm logging off here in a minute. I might be on my phone but I won't have my Bible or the computer.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Which is what David says in Ps. 51:5: in sin did my mother conceive me.

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Pasams 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

I find it impossible that the Lord Jesus would say the following about little children if He thought that they were stained by sin and could not enter the kingdom of God in that shape:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're ignoring WHY we're spiritually dead to begin with imo. I'm logging off here in a minute. I might be on my phone but I won't have my Bible or the computer.

I showed you. People die spiritually as a result of their own sin. Therefore, it is obvious that they must be alive spiritually when they die spiritually. Norman L. Geisler says the following about the "death" spoken of in this verse:

"Before a person is liberated to this new life in Christ, he is 'dead in' in his sins...Death means separation, not annihilation. Even the unsaved still bear the image of God (Gen.9:6; James 3:9), but they are separted from God. Cut off from spiritual life, they still have human life" [emphasis added] (Norman L. Geisler, "Colossians," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 678).​

Let us now look at another passage which teaches the same exact thing:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas. 1:14-15).​

In the book Fallen:A Theology of Sin (a book which defends the theory of Original Sin) David B. Calhoun writes the following commentary about this passage:

"Temptation leads to sin, and, for the unrepentant, sin leads to spiritual death. 'Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death' (James 1:14-15). James describes the deadly progression from evil desire, to being dragged away, to enticement, to conception, to birth and then finally to death. This sixfold progression proceeds from the mind, to the affections, to the will, to outward action, and to spiritual death" (David B. Calhoun, "Sin and Temptation" in Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 264).​

 

[patrick jane]

I showed you. People die spiritually as a result of their own sin. Therefore, it is obvious that they must be alive spiritually when they die spiritually. Norman L. Geisler says the following about the "death" spoken of in this verse:

"Before a person is liberated to this new life in Christ, he is 'dead in' in his sins...Death means separation, not annihilation. Even the unsaved still bear the image of God (Gen.9:6; James 3:9), but they are separted from God. Cut off from spiritual life, they still have human life" [emphasis added] (Norman L. Geisler, "Colossians," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 678).​

Let us now look at another passage which teaches the same exact thing:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas. 1:14-15).​

In the book Fallen:A Theology of Sin (a book which defends the theory of Original Sin) David B. Calhoun writes the following commentary about this passage:

"Temptation leads to sin, and, for the unrepentant, sin leads to spiritual death. 'Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death' (James 1:14-15). James describes the deadly progression from evil desire, to being dragged away, to enticement, to conception, to birth and then finally to death. This sixfold progression proceeds from the mind, to the affections, to the will, to outward action, and to spiritual death" (David B. Calhoun, "Sin and Temptation" in Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 264).​

Can you show that Adam & Eve were guaranteed to sin, hence we all were? We sin since the apple. We have no ability to NOT sin since that moment. Did they have the ability to remain in God's presence and commune directly with Him forever if they obeyed that one commandment?

 

[patrick jane]

From Grace Ambassadors :

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”~ Galatians 3:22
1. Calvinist or Arminian a. Both are products of the Reformation: neither rightly divide b. Both carried on the philosophical tradition replacing Catholic scholarship c. Both teach predestination, election, grace, loss of free will d. Both affirm the necessary grace of God for salvation, and then teach keeping it. e. Most think the debate is about OSAS, when that is not the issue in either system f. Geneva or Holland did not have the corner on Bible truth; what if we are neither g. The Bible rightly divided is our authority – 2 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 2:23, Col 2:8
2. The Philosophical Beginning a. The question of free will goes back to the Greeks and before.b. Confused Christianity adds their philosophy beginning with Adam’s fall -Rom 5:12 c. The Bible teaches man’s depravity (all agree) –
Psa 39:5, Rom 3:10 d. Theologians teach that men lose their ability to change their mind/ believe God e. If they are right, then God must forcibly intervene = Calvinist election is needed 3. Paul’s Account of the Fall a. By one man sin entered, death was the result – Rom 5:12, Eph 2:1 b. Not just physical, but spiritual death and alienation – Eph 4:17-19 c. We read about the sinful nature of man in Romans 1-3 – Rom 1:21-28 d. Even the self-righteous/privileged are not exempted – Rom 2:1-3, 2:12, 2:16-24 e. Man’s corruption in sin is universal - Rom 3:9-11 f. No one can be justified before God by any good works – Rom 3:19-22, Eph 2:8 g. We sin because we are first sinners - Rom 5:12,19; 1 Cor 15:22 h. The old man is corrupt, and condemned before God – Eph 4:22
4. Knowing Good and Evil a. Adam knew good and evil after the fall - Gen 2:17, 3:5, 3:22 b. Unsaved, unregenerate man is able to do good Rom 2:10 (but they are in Adam)c.

Unsaved gentiles know and do right by their conscience – Rom 2:10-15 d. Who is this good man? – Rom 5:7, Luke 23:50, Prov 13:22, 2 Pet 2:7 e. The problem is not that we cannot choose ‘good’, it is that we are not good f. People are wicked even as they try to do good (Steve Jobs) – Pro 21:27 g. Paul testifies to this problem with his two natures - Romans 7:12, 14-20 h. The old man is corrupt and depraved, our conscience even testifies to this.i.

The Bible confirms it, faith cometh by hearing… Rom 10:17, Rom 3:22 j. Paul calls upon all men to change their mind and believe – Act 16:30-31, 17:30 k. The Spirit is in those who preach the gospel; men hear it, trust it and are sealed. l. You were changed by the Spirit when you believe - 1 Cor 6:11, Eph 1:13

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can you show that Adam & Eve were guaranteed to sin, hence we all were? We sin since the apple. We have no ability to NOT sin since that moment.

The Bible teaches, that at least in theory, that a person can inherit eternal life by his own efforts. If a person is born dead in sin then the only way that he can obtain eternal life is by being born again. However, the Scriptures reveal that, at least in theory, a person can obtain eternal life by his own deeds and that alone proves that the teaching of Original Sin is in error.

Let us look at the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. We can see a similiar conversation in the book of Matthew where the Lord Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt.19:17).

What the Lord Jesus said there is either true or it is not. And since the Lord Jesus would never say anything that is not true we can understand that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own works. And if a person emerges from the womb spiritual dead then no amount of law-keeping could save him because he must be born again.

 

[tdhiggins]

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Pasams 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

I find it impossible that the Lord Jesus would say the following about little children if He thought that they were stained by sin and could not enter the kingdom of God in that shape:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

In other words: "You can pick and choose which parts of Scripture to take seriously and which parts you can throw away."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In other words: "You can pick and choose which parts of Scripture to take seriously and which parts you can throw away."

I take it all seriously. And I explained that David was using "figurative" language at Psalm 51:5 and we know that because the words of the Lord Jesus which I quoted about "little children" demonstrates that He did not think infants or little children are banned from the kingdom because they emerged from the womb spiritually dead.

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).
​

The Lord said that the heavenly kingdom BELONGS to them, the little children. But if the theory of Original Sin is correct then they cannot enter into the kingdom unless they are born of the water and the Spirit. And in the following passage the Lord told His disciples that unless they "become as little children" they cannot enter the kingdom:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).

If the Lord thought that "little children" were dead spiritually and banned from the kingdom then He certainly would not use "little children" as an example of those who will enter the kingdom.

 

[tdhiggins]

Sherman, do you realize that your argument is hypocritical? You are claiming that Psalm 51:5 is figurative (which it clearly is not) while using Matt. 18 in which Jesus is CLEARLY using the little children as an example. What, do you think He meant that we have to reverse the aging process to turn 8 years old again? The "little children" obviously means faithfully and dependent on the work of Christ alone. It does not mean innocent (as you would have it mean) because we CANNOT come to Christ innocent of sin. Otherwise, what would be the point? The one who is innocent has no need of salvation.

 

[Tambora]

Hey Jerry,

I need to ask for clarification because one minute I think you're saying one thing and then the next minute I think you're saying something different.

In your view:
Every individual is born spiritually alive.
As soon as they sin, they become spiritually dead and thus need to be made spiritually alive again.

Is that correct?
Thanks.

 

[Tambora]

Sherman, do you realize that your argument is hypocritical? You are claiming that Psalm 51:5 is figurative (which it clearly is not) while using Matt. 18 in which Jesus is CLEARLY using the little children as an example. What, do you think He meant that we have to reverse the aging process to turn 8 years old again? The "little children" obviously means faithfully and dependent on the work of Christ alone. It does not mean innocent (as you would have it mean) because we CANNOT come to Christ innocent of sin. Otherwise, what would be the point? The one who is innocent has no need of salvation.

Sherman has not posted in this thread.

 

[tdhiggins]

My apologies, Jerry, I was thinking about another thread.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is that correct?
Thanks.

Yes, it's correct.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "little children" obviously means faithfully and dependent on the work of Christ alone. It does not mean innocent (as you would have it mean) because we CANNOT come to Christ innocent of sin. Otherwise, what would be the point? The one who is innocent has no need of salvation.

You are right. No one innocent is in need of salvation. But those who first promoted the false theory of Original Sin said that little children are not innocent and are in need of salvation!!

Is that what you believe?

Besides, why would the Lord Jesus say that the Kingdom BELONGS to them if they couldn't inherit the kingdom since, according to Original Sin, they are dead in Adam's sin and need to be born of water and spirit before it can belong to them?

Your idea and the idea of Original Sin makes no sense.

 

[tdhiggins]

You are right. No one innocent is in need of salvation. But those who first promoted the false theory of Original Sin said that little children are not innocent and are in need of salvation!!

Is that what you believe?

Indeed it is. I believe it of my own daughter, because the Holy Scriptures are clear. In fact, inherited sin is obvious from experience as well. My three-month old daughter already knows how to become angry when she does not get her way (Augustine made the same argument in the Confessions). I don't believe this because I like being right or because I like the doctrine. I believe that doctrine because the Bible teaches it, and I believe 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Also, I'm not sure if you saw or not, but I apologize for calling you by the wrong name.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Indeed it is.

So you believe that little children are not innocent and are in need of salvation? How are they saved while still infants?

And you can call me any name you like!