Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[daqq]

That's ok, just read you book of enoch, and all the other non-canonical books you can memorize. :chuckle:

If Jude says Enoch prophesied and then quotes from 1Enoch, and if many fragments of 1Enoch have been uncovered from Qumran dating from about 50BCE to 200BCE, which was well before Jude was written: then 1Enoch is entirely worthy of my study. In other words, if it was good enough for Jude, it is critical to me: and what a blessing too, for I have found things in the Torah, (and not just Gen6), and many things in the Prophet Isaiah, and even things in the testimony of the Master himself in the Gospel accounts, things which all speak of statements made in 1Enoch. Elohim is Good.

 

[patrick jane]

Gravity is the most parsimonious explanation for the phenomenon we see. You could suppose that "downward fairies" grab things and pull them toward the center of the earth with a force proportional to their mass, but it requires a huge number of auxillary assumptions.



Not so weak. Your body has more gravitational pull on your screen than Jupiter has.

I realize that you're the biggest troll in TOL history but please read some recent posts and the OP, which I'm going to edit after further thought and the hodge podge of flat earth topics in other threads that can be used for scientific rebuttals, vast planetary knowledge and nasa data. I will follow the thread topic no matter what. So for instance, if you can show scriptures mentioning gravity or any scripture that mentions gravity, feel free to post them. I'm not talking something falling in the Bible etc. for trolling purposes.

I've started plenty of Trump threads for you and you have more than me possibly. You can also start your own thread to put your big brain on display. I know it's tempting to troll me since we disagree on so much and I regularly embarrass you whenever I do decide to reply.

 

[patrick jane]

If Jude says Enoch prophesied and then quotes from 1Enoch, and if many fragments of 1Enoch have been uncovered from Qumran dating from about 50BCE to 200BCE, which was well before Jude was written: then 1Enoch is entirely worthy of my study. In other words, if it was good enough for Jude, it is critical to me: and what a blessing too, for I have found things in the Torah, (and not just Gen6), and many things in the Prophet Isaiah, and even things in the testimony of the Master himself in the Gospel accounts, things which all speak of statements made in 1Enoch. Elohim is Good.

Nope, not canonized. Keep your non-canonical stuff to yourself, or start a new thread. Don't worry, I'm going to edit the OP to clarify or I may close this one and start a new one so everybody's on the same page. Jude is a poor example, btw. The book of enoch may be "worthy of reading" but I wouldn't go so far as to "study" it. Whatever it says about Enoch in the Holy Bible is worthy of study and feel free to post it here. I think I'm being clear about this thread and if I have to I'll tell everyone individually. It's funny that a few of you are so good at interpreting God's word but can't seem to get what I'm asking for.

 

[patrick jane]

Anyone come up with a feasible flat Earth explanation for a Foucault pendulum?

Anyone?

One more and reported, but I'll give you time to read some recent posts, so you know.

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by Tambora
Then a flat earth is not outside of GOD's power.

The sun and moon stop.
It doesn't say anything else in the universe stopped.
I'm not so sure any scientist would say that the earth kept moving along as normal while that was happening with no repercussions.

The sun stopped.
If the earth was a spinning ball, then stopping the sun would have made the day shorter not longer.
But if the earth was fixed and flat (ya know, like scripture describes it), the story fits like a glove and the day would indeed be longer in that area.

I said this in Dave's flat earth thread but it bears repeating, that if the sun and moon stopped then the earth had to stop. In fact, since we're told that the whole "universe" is expanding since the "Bang" at millions of miles per hour then God either stopped the whole cosmos or only the sun and moon. Scripture doesn't tell us He stopped the earth or anything else in the firmament.

The long yom of Joshua points to Golgotha: the sun is at his right hand setting in the shades of the west. The moon is at his left hand rising in the east. The "Book of the Upright" is not some other book called Jasher or Yasher, no, it is the Torah. The companion passage is written specifically for Joshua: Moses was not able to hold up his hands until the going down of the sun, and thus, Ahron and Hur stayed his hands until the going down of the sun, (and Moses held up the rod of Elohim, which was probably five cubits, and made in the sign of the waw or vav, a stake). Joshua was the only one who, by the Hand of Elohim, ever held up his hands in the sign of the waw until the children of Israel defeated their enemies at the going down of the sun, that is, until Golgotha. But Joshua only held up his hands in the sign of the stake for about the space of one yom: Messiah held up his hands in the sign of the waw, the stake, for the full six yamim of the new creation, (Gen1).

 

[patrick jane]

2 points:
1) I 'linked' to scripture presentations
2) Evidence that 'supports' the biblical data, and vise versa, I believe, go hand in hand. Because your thread IS about the physical world, we can and should discuss what God discusses concerning His scriptures. Psalm 19:1 Romans 1:20 Job 26:7

It is my opinion, rather than isolating scripture 'from' other revelation, that it always should be couched in all revelation and observation. I've contested and still contest: A search for truth makes theology and science, in its truest sense, a pursuit of knowing truth and knowing God.


Again, a survey of the earth IS given by Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19:1 A 'desire' for a separation? I believe both unbiblical AND artificial. Truth will out, no matter the source because that source is always God. "As" I'd discuss what God says 'is clearly seen that every man is without excuse' is by observing what God has created. If I participate further, I cannot separate God's truths from one another. Read Job 26:7

Btw, did you read the first article? He said some brilliant playful college students, started one of your flat-earth movements, tongue-in-cheek. There was no seriousness to it other than a platform for debate and learning debate, and a certain entertainment value being appointed to the flat-earth side. The other flat-earth movement? Serious, but as far as I can tell, scripturally and observationally (again Job 26:7, Psalm 19:1, and Romans 1:20ff), God has conveyed that the earth is an orb simply by our clear observations. We gather most ideas of the shape of the earth, from scriptures, by inference. Nothing in it says the earth is flat although I do believe, such as Job 26, that 'suspended upon nothing' synchronizes with what we know of our orbit and rotation. I do believe thus, that any mention of seasons and specifics of days, always supports an orbiting globe. "Foundation" nor "pedestal" nor 'pillars' support either flat or globe. Your globe in your house, for instance, cannot be suspended without a foundation or pedestal. None of it can be used to support the one idea that will not immediately support the other idea. Because of that? I don't believe you'll be able to satisfy the prerequisite of your thread: No scripture can be used or misused to support one that will not also immediately support the other, imho. I'll leave you to your thread. I've not other scriptures to present at this time other than ones that tell us to pay attention to other ways God speaks to us. :e4e: -Lon

You've had time to read some recent posts in this thread that now love so much . Is sarcasm vindictive? :idunno: If you haven't had time I'm sorry for suggesting that you might be messing with me intentionally. If you feel as interested as I am about an enclosed flat earth and firmament, by all means start a thread.

 

[daqq]

Nope, not canonized. Keep your non-canonical stuff to yourself, or start a new thread. Don't worry, I'm going to edit the OP to clarify or I may close this one and start a new one so everybody's on the same page. Jude is a poor example, btw. The book of enoch may be "worthy of reading" but I wouldn't go so far as to "study" it. Whatever it says about Enoch in the Holy Bible is worthy of study and feel free to post it here. I think I'm being clear about this thread and if I have to I'll tell everyone individually. It's funny that a few of you are so good at interpreting God's word but can't seem to get what I'm asking for.

Uh, you posted more from Enoch than I did.

 

[daqq]

The long yom of Joshua points to Golgotha: the sun is at his right hand setting in the shades of the west. The moon is at his left hand rising in the east. The "Book of the Upright" is not some other book called Jasher or Yasher, no, it is the Torah. The companion passage is written specifically for Joshua: Moses was not able to hold up his hands until the going down of the sun, and thus, Ahron and Hur stayed his hands until the going down of the sun, (and Moses held up the rod of Elohim, which was probably five cubits, and made in the sign of the waw or vav, a stake). Joshua was the only one who, by the Hand of Elohim, ever held up his hands in the sign of the waw until the children of Israel defeated their enemies at the going down of the sun, that is, until Golgotha. But Joshua only held up his hands in the sign of the stake for about the space of one yom: Messiah held up his hands in the sign of the waw, the stake, for the full six yamim of the new creation, (Gen1).

Have a nice thread, @patrick jane, I'll leave you with the above, (cf. here).

 

[Lon]

One more non-Biblical. I see your potential vindictiveness now, and lately, because you've had time to read some recent posts in this thread that now love so much . Is sarcasm vindictive? :idunno: If you haven't had time I'm sorry for suggesting that might be messing with me intentionally. If you feel as interested as I am about an enclosed flat earth and firmament, by all means start a thread.

You'll have to deconstruct it. I believe I posted a number of scriptures :idunno: Are there rules about 'which' scriptures will be acceptable for thread discussion and which will not? :think: Are you seeing a disagreement and support of that disagreement as 'vindictive?'

I'm intrigued. At least you have garnered attention? I'm a bit perplexed. You can see Knight's surprise, when Dave came out with a 'serious' flat-earth position. I reckon there is a bit of that shock and surprise here as well. I'm dumbfounded and caught COMPLETELY unaware that anyone could actually believe in a flat-earth. Like in the first article I posted, that author was also caught a bit surprised. He suggested that many don't have enough actual knowledge to combat a flat-earth. The reason? Because he said we all take these for granted rather than trying to 'prove' they are true. Because of that? I think a couple of threads like this can help those on both sides better understand 'why' there is a problematic disagreement.

I had never questioned our going to the moon. The first I remember anything like that was Capricorn One (a fictitious conspiracy theory movie). Interestingly, it both reflected a few grass-root doubts and fostered more of them.

(sorry no scriptures on this, I think this 'debate' unexpected by most of us and so I also think we'll have to revisit older scripture debates over flat-earth and a globe. It had been debated, of course, and by no means were the majority of flat-earthers theologically driven, nor held by pastors and priests as a majority. :e4e:

 

[patrick jane]

The long yom of Joshua points to Golgotha: the sun is at his right hand setting in the shades of the west. The moon is at his left hand rising in the east. The "Book of the Upright" is not some other book called Jasher or Yasher, no, it is the Torah. The companion passage is written specifically for Joshua: Moses was not able to hold up his hands until the going down of the sun, and thus, Ahron and Hur stayed his hands until the going down of the sun, (and Moses held up the rod of Elohim, which was probably five cunits, and made in the sign of the waw or vav, a stake). Joshua was the only one who, by the Hand of Elohim, ever held up his hands in the sign of the waw until the children of Israel defeated their enemies at the going down of the sun, that is, until Golgotha. But Joshua only held up his hands in the sign of the stake for about the space of one yom: Messiah held up his hands in the sign of the waw, the stake, for the full six yamim of the new creation, (Gen1).

Sounds interesting, if it's all canonized. If not it's not then it's not Biblical. I may have to put this in ECT. Men with much more advanced interpreting skills canonized scripture for a reason. It's interesting but not scripture according my Bible. If you feel strongly about all of the non-canonized information available out there that's "mentioned" in the Bible. Start Your Own Thread.

 

[patrick jane]

You'll have to deconstruct it. I believe I posted a number of scriptures :idunno: Are there rules about 'which' scriptures will be acceptable for thread discussion and which will not? :think:

I choose to believe all inspired scripture. I thought you started telling a story about planes or something. I'm sorry. I think it's clear by now that I just want to talk about what's in my Bible and yours. I've gotten to know personalities in the last few years here and again, I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong. edit: I am in no way saying that my personality is any better that anyone else's.

 

[patrick jane]

Uh, you posted more from Enoch than I did.

Yep, to prove you wrong. I've changed my mind now. Start your own non-biblical thread.

 

[Lon]

I choose to believe all inspired scripture. I thought you started telling a story about planes or something. I'm sorry. I think it's clear by now that I just want to talk about what's in my Bible and yours. I've gotten to know personalities in the last few years here and again, I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong.

Again, I think it comes with the territory. We are, in a real sense, reinventing the wheel (or rather globe) regarding the shape of the earth. We are also calling into question a number of Christians (not just you and I, but a number of astronauts as well), who have first-hand knowledge of some of these experiments and observations. I have never really found anything in scripture that can be used to 'prove' a flat or globe earth. I do think some intimate such (like the Job 26 verse). To me, because of scriptures such as Psalms, Job, and Romans 1, I've come to look at the world as to what God wants me to know, but I haven't really been able to use a verse for experiments or testing hypothesis. Why? Because the Bible while concerned about physical matters, is a book about the spiritual condition and our desperate need for a Savior. In it, while discussing these things, it does convey trustworthy observations about the world we live in but for me, the most that scripture has ever done in that pursuit, has been to inspire me to look at God's handiwork.

I think I've stepped on your toes inadvertently a couple of times in being fascinated, intrigued, and trying to make sense of these threads. In a way, I'd hope you'd take it as a compliment because I've never been dragged into actually looking some things up, nor interested before your involvement in this. Dave is a nice guy, but his thread didn't really interest me much for participation. I did read along a bit.

I'm not sure if I can be of service to you, because I've really not thought much about conspiracy theory. I know a couple of people, first-hand who have worked for NASA and I've heard a few astronauts speak while in college and had never thought to call any of what they were telling me, into question. For example, Watch

a bit of this. Does it even enter your mind to think of questioning him? Maybe it does :idunno: (lot of scripture he uses btw). For me, I just am caught up in awe and wonder. Again: :idunno: In Him -Lon

 

[patrick jane]

You'll have to deconstruct it. I believe I posted a number of scriptures :idunno: Are there rules about 'which' scriptures will be acceptable for thread discussion and which will not? :think: Are you seeing a disagreement and support of that disagreement as 'vindictive?'

I'm intrigued. At least you have garnered attention? I'm a bit perplexed. You can see Knight's surprise, when Dave came out with a 'serious' flat-earth position. I reckon there is a bit of that shock and surprise here as well. I'm dumbfounded and caught COMPLETELY unaware that anyone could actually believe in a flat-earth. Like in the first article I posted, that author was also caught a bit surprised. He suggested that many don't have enough actual knowledge to combat a flat-earth. The reason? Because he said we all take these for granted rather than trying to 'prove' they are true. Because of that? I think a couple of threads like this can help those on both sides better understand 'why' there is a problematic disagreement.

I had never questioned our going to the moon. The first I remember anything like that was Capricorn One (a fictitious conspiracy theory movie). Interestingly, it both reflected a few grass-root doubts and fostered more of them.

(sorry no scriptures on this, I think this 'debate' unexpected by most of us and so I also think we'll have to revisit older scripture debates over flat-earth and a globe. It had been debated, of course, and by no means were the majority of flat-earthers theologically driven, nor held by pastors and priests as a majority. :e4e:

Great post, Lon

 

[daqq]

I choose to believe all inspired scripture. I thought you started telling a story about planes or something. I'm sorry. I think it's clear by now that I just want to talk about what's in my Bible and yours. I've gotten to know personalities in the last few years here and again, I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong. edit: I am in no way saying that my personality is any better that anyone else's.

This is why I said have a nice thread, for you are at the point of not even reading what others post: everything I said in that post, to which you just replied herein, is found in the Torah, ("the Sefer of the Upright"), and the book of Joshua, and the Gospel accounts.

:e4e: . . . :luigi:

 

[patrick jane]

Again, I think it comes with the territory. We are, in a real sense, reinventing the wheel (or rather globe) regarding the shape of the earth. We are also calling into question a number of Christians (not just you and I, but a number of astronauts as well), who have first-hand knowledge of some of these experiments and observations. I have never really found anything in scripture that can be used to 'prove' a flat or globe earth. I do think some intimate such (like the Job 26 verse). To me, because of scriptures such as Psalms, Job, and Romans 1, I've come to look at the world as to what God wants me to know, but I haven't really been able to use a verse for experiments or testing hypothesis. Why? Because the Bible while concerned about physical matters, is a book about the spiritual condition and our desperate need for a Savior. In it, while discussing these things, it does convey trustworthy observations about the world we live in but for me, the most that scripture has ever done in that pursuit, has been to inspire me to look at God's handiwork.

I think I've stepped on your toes inadvertently a couple of times in being fascinated, intrigued, and trying to make sense of these threads. In a way, I'd hope you'd take it as a compliment because I've never been dragged into actually looking some things up, nor interested before your involvement in this. Dave is a nice guy, but his thread didn't really interest me much for participation. I did read along a bit.

I'm not sure if I can be of service to you, because I've really not thought much about conspiracy theory. I know a couple of people, first-hand who have worked for NASA and I've heard a few astronauts speak while in college and had never thought to call any of what they were telling me, into question. For example, Watch

a bit of this. Does it even enter your mind to think of questioning him? Maybe it does :idunno: (lot of scripture he uses btw). For me, I just am caught up in awe and wonder. Again: :idunno: In Him -Lon

Another good post and videos like this are great. (unless I watch it and hear a bunch of math and science) :chuckle: As you mentioned, it is getting attention and that's good. I'm going to try focusing on this and other conspiracies in the other thread but somebody suggested starting a Biblical thread about it. When I decided to do it I announced it in a few threads but in my zeal I broke my own guidelines for this thread. I want you input. This thread may be starting to run it's course but then again, I also find it fascinating.

 

[patrick jane]

This is why I said have a nice thread, for you are at the point of not even reading what others post: everything I said in that post, to which you just replied herein, is found in the Torah, ("the Sefer of the Upright"), and the book of Joshua, and the Gospel accounts.

:e4e: . . . :luigi:

Yes, it's hard to keep up with the delay we all experience here when posting in flurries. Like I said, ANYTHING in our Bible (I prefer King James) that is in the 66 books are up for discussion. You have a lot of knowledge, you should start more threads.

 

[Lon]

Another good post and videos like this are great. (unless I watch it and hear a bunch of math and science) :chuckle: As you mentioned, it is getting attention and that's good. I'm going to try focusing on this and other conspiracies in the other thread but somebody suggested starting a Biblical thread about it. When I decided to do it I announced it in a few threads but in my zeal I broke my own guidelines for this thread. I want you input. This thread may be starting to run it's course but then again, I also find it fascinating.

I think you'll REALLY enjoy that video. Toward the end, he conveys a conversation and friendship he started with a Christian astronaut as well as a picture he sent Louie from space (again, Louie uses a lot of scriptures and compares them to space observations). :e4e:

 

[daqq]

Yep, to prove you wrong. I've changed my mind now. Start your own non-biblical thread.

Again, you do not prove me wrong but actually proved my point because you did not understand my point. Go back and actually read what I said.

PS ~ Which point was that the author of 1Enoch, whether you accept it as canonical or not, does not insert sun and moon into Gen1 like you do: for whoever wrote it, if so, would never have said that Uriel rules all the host of heaven, both the sun and the day, and the moon and stars with the night. He therefore is not speaking of Gen1 like you imagine.

 

[patrick jane]

I think you'll REALLY enjoy that video. Toward the end, he conveys a conversation and friendship he started with a Christian astronaut as well as a picture he sent Louie from space (again, Louie uses a lot of scriptures and compares them to space observations). :e4e:

I will watch it very shortly, it will be interesting to hear testimonies from both sides. Again, if there are testimonies of interpretations of the Bible with very little citing of scientific data, and information, I'm now trying to discuss what the scripture says with interpretations of them based on the times they were written mostly.

I am about to edit the OP slightly if I can quit replying for a bit, as I just checked the religion forum on TOL, it allows for science and science related threads and I assume, posts. I can only ask others to follow the soon to be updated Original first post of this thread, I suppose. I thought about putting in ECT to begin with but that restricts potential visitors (If I remember right).