Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[jsanford108]

1. We know that God created heavenly bodies to be observed for signs and seasons. It doesn't say anything about the size, shape or distance of "stars" that I'm aware of. Personally, I don't see what stars not appearing perfectly circular has to do with anything.

Stars were not the focus of the question, merely an added bit of information.

The question is "why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular?"

2. If I understand #2, the entire explanation for eclipses, lunar and solar are shown absolutely possible on an enclosed earth and firmament. When I get time to, I will examine that information more and try typing what they show instead of a video to watch. I may post the vid if I think it's worthy though.

Any form of response, be it video or personal explanation will suffice. Provided that the explanation is based in a physically evident reality.

If it is a video, I would prefer one with a scholastic, scholarly source. But, beggars can't be choosers.

3. Yes there are other planets (from what we apparently see and are told) as we define them. I could be wrong but I think stars also fit the definition of a planet.

I agree that there are planets that are observable. But the same evidence provided for such planets comes from sources that use equally weighted evidence for support of a spherical earth.


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[patrick jane]

Romans 11:33-36 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The dilemma I'm finding in the debate over an enclosed earth and cosmos is that people think it's not possible. If you think it's impossible then you won't hear what the Bible and therefore, I am saying. Nothing is impossible for God. His ways are past finding out.

I'm crazy, I don't know math, I'M the one ignoring "facts" and "nasa data" and it's not possible. If you can get past all that, then consider that it is possible. Just like the Bible says. If it's not possible, why waste your time? This subject does not change my faith or doctrine. Whether it is or isn't a flying spinning ball or an enclosed earth and firmament makes no difference in how I live my life. Like many people, I find the subject fascinating with the Biblical support of an enclosed earth and firmament. Make up your own mind, decide for yourself.


Luke 1:37 KJV - For with God nothing shall be impossible.


Genesis 18:14 KJV - Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

 

[Tambora]

The Hebrews also didn't think that the Americas existed, or Antarctica. Do you hold this to be true and accurate, as wall?

I don't consider the Bible to be what Hebrews think or say about the earth, but what GOD thinks and says about the earth.

When one sets the flat earth model and the glove earth model side by side, the one that best fits the descriptions in the Bible are aligned with the flat earth model.

i can guess why men get their facts wrong, because they are ignorant compared to GOD.
I trust GOD over ignorant mankind.
But that's just me.
You can trust in whomever you wish.

 

[jsanford108]

Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

TIMELAPSE OF THE SUN PROVES FLAT EARTH - HD perspective matrix


From the video description: This is an upgraded version of the original with added timelapse footage. The old, low resolution footage has been replaced with high resolution HD footage. Watch how the sun comes at you when it's rising and goes away from you when it's setting. See how the sun's light at sunset shrinks and trails after it - not at all what we would expect to see if the sun is 93,000,000 miles away.

I am posting this video in Dave's thread and my two threads because this is good evidence - debunk it if you can.
https://youtu.be/GDaiw-G1VGE - Only 20 minutes to prove the flat earth, Click on link for full screen view - Sometimes if you click the video the screen gets cut in half. This won't happen on your phone.

I would like to "debunk" this, but it would venture out of biblical bases, relying on physics, astronomy, and other extra-biblical evidence and posits.

So, with your permission, I will proceed
It will probably be later tonight or tomorrow when I respond, though, due to non-TOL engagements.

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[patrick jane]

I would like to "debunk" this, but it would venture out of biblical bases, relying on physics, astronomy, and other extra-biblical evidence and posits.

So, with your permission, I will proceed
It will probably be later tonight or tomorrow when I respond, though, due to non-TOL engagements.

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No problem, If you can, see my post in Dave's flat earth thread that I just made.

 

[jsanford108]

I don't consider the Bible to be what Hebrews think or say about the earth, but what GOD thinks and says about the earth.

When one sets the flat earth model and the glove earth model side by side, the one that best fits the descriptions in the Bible are aligned with the flat earth model.

i can guess why men get their facts wrong, because they are ignorant compared to GOD.
I trust GOD over ignorant mankind.
But that's just me.
You can trust in whomever you wish.

You are avoiding the logical issues, relying on quips to defend your argument and to expose flaws in my character.

Why not just defend your position? Thus far, there as be no definitive biblical evidence of "flat earth." You will notice that you didn't answer the three questions I posed, unlike Sir Patrick. Is it because you rely on others to handle the hard questions, because you can't?

(See how quips that are aimed at character are fruitless to meaningful conversation?)




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[patrick jane]

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -

 

[Tambora]

You are avoiding the logical issues, relying on quips to defend your argument and to expose flaws in my character.

Why not just defend your position? Thus far, there as be no definitive biblical evidence of "flat earth." You will notice that you didn't answer the three questions I posed, unlike Sir Patrick. Is it because you rely on others to handle the hard questions, because you can't?

(See how quips that are aimed at character are fruitless to meaningful conversation?)




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Listen up, bud.
I am not doing anything to your character.
Your character has nothing to do with it.

If you want to talk about what Hebrews thought and said, be my guest.
I don't care to go down that trail.

I am just going by what scripture presents.
I am not going by what science presents, nor what some Hebrews present.

Tell me what you think scripture says about the earth.
We can go from there.

 

[Lon]

Not scripture, but from Christians who attest that the earth is a sphere. Answers also has scripture articles.

Reinventing the wheel here on TOL isn't as good, imho, as reading articles by men and women who have the best means to test theories.

Being a pilot also proves a global earth (and there are other reasons I believe both scripturally and by observation, the earth is a globe), but I'm not really into talking someone out of their beliefs if it matters this much to them. I am interested in the truth and giving information that anyone can look up. I'm also interested in giving observations that prove or uphold a global earth (Here is another that convinced me Coriolis Effect).

Here is a good overall basic of what it means to be on a ball (sphere). If what he is saying is true (and it is) you or anybody CAN test whether what he is saying is true and discover for yourself, on your own terms, whether the earth is a globe or a disk. :e4e:

 

[patrick jane]

The question is "why do the sun and moon appear perfectly circular?"

God made them. God makes perfect things. Because they WERE NOT created by the "big bang". You do belive Jesus Christ created all things, right?

John 1:1-3 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:10-12 KJV - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[daqq]

Not scripture, but from Christians who attest that the earth is a sphere. Answers also has scripture articles.

Reinventing the wheel here on TOL isn't as good, imho, as reading articles by men and women who have the best means to test theories.

Being a pilot also proves a global earth (and there are other reasons I believe both scripturally and by observation, the earth is a globe), but I'm not really into talking someone out of their beliefs if it matters this much to them. I am interested in the truth and giving information that anyone can look up. I'm also interested in giving observations that prove or uphold a global earth (Here is another that convinced me Coriolis Effect).

Here is a good overall basic of what it means to be on a ball (sphere). If what he is saying is true (and it is) you or anybody CAN test whether what he is saying is true and discover for yourself, on your own terms, whether the earth is a globe or a disk. :e4e:

That is amazing in the one video at the equator, (here), how just a couple of feet makes the difference in the reversing of the coriolis effect.

 

[patrick jane]

That is amazing in the one video at the equator, , how just a couple of feet makes the difference in the reversing of the coriolis effect.

No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.

This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name

 

[patrick jane]

The dilemma I'm finding in the debate over an enclosed earth and cosmos is that people think it's not possible. If you think it's impossible then you won't hear what the Bible and therefore, I am saying. Nothing is impossible for God. His ways are past finding out.

I'm crazy, I don't know math, I'M the one ignoring "facts" and "nasa data" and it's not possible. If you can get past all that, then consider that it is possible. Just like the Bible says. If it's not possible, why waste your time? This subject does not change my faith or doctrine. Whether it is or isn't a flying spinning ball or an enclosed earth and firmament makes no difference in how I live my life. Like many people, I find the subject fascinating with the Biblical support of an enclosed earth and firmament. Make up your own mind, decide for yourself.


Luke 1:37 KJV - For with God nothing shall be impossible.


Genesis 18:14 KJV - Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Romans 11:34-36 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Hebrews 1:10 KJV - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


Hebrews 11:3 KJV - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[daqq]

No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.

This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name

Okay, sorry.

 

[patrick jane]

Okay, sorry.

That's ok, just read you book of enoch, and all the other non-canonical books you can memorize. :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

In the 1547 (I think) Matthews Bible it says flatt, two t's. I posted a picture of the text in that Bible where it says flat. It could be an interpreting error in one Bible and many of those verses of the 200 could be taken out of context. Flat Earthers don't contend that everything has to be "straight".

Good find Patrick, and I say that because it reveals how translators will often, yes often, allow their own paradigm-mindsets to slip into the translation. The passage is clearly not intending to teach anything about whether or not the earth is flat: but there it is in that old translation, straight from the mind of the translator(s), even though it is clear from the context that a flat earth has nothing to do with what the passage is speaking about. Moreover the text has the word panei, which is "face", and is used in a very great and wide variety of contexts, and in this sense means the same as how it is used in Gen1:2, "the face of the waters", and simply means surface without judging whether said surface is curved or absolutely flat and level. The 2Sam11:11 passage literally says, "and the servants of my lord are encamped upon the face of the field", and that clearly just means upon or across the surface of a field. Gen1:2, "and Ruach Elohim brooded upon the panei-face of the waters", that is to say, upon or over the surface of the waters.

However, thank goodness the KJV has been redacted, (lol), and it indeed has been redacted/revised many times since the first edition. For no doubt, if such a reading as that had been allowed to stand until now, every flat-earther would be quoting that text and screaming, "God says the earth is flat! and you simply do not believe Him or His Word!" But if this was wrong, and they realized it and corrected it: how many other things have gone unnoticed and uncorrected? All English translations are simply that: translations of men and man, translations from the original languages into English, (or any other language), and yet it is truly not even possible to render either Hebrew or Greek as if word for word into any other language including English. It simply cannot be done unless you want a Bible that is about seven times larger when all possible meanings of words, statements, and passages are taken into account. Even in the Gospel accounts, when the Master speaks, there are likely seven meanings or branches of thought to every parable, (like vine-branches on a vine).

 

[The Barbarian]

It's amazing how many things science explains with gravity and other magical "forces".

Gravity is the most parsimonious explanation for the phenomenon we see. You could suppose that "downward fairies" grab things and pull them toward the center of the earth with a force proportional to their mass, but it requires a huge number of auxillary assumptions.

Such a strong force and yet so weak.

Not so weak. Your body has more gravitational pull on your screen than Jupiter has.

 

[The Barbarian]

Such a strong force and yet so weak.

Not so weak. Your body has more gravitational pull on your screen than Jupiter has.

 

[Lon]

No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.

2 points:
1) I 'linked' to scripture presentations
2) Evidence that 'supports' the biblical data, and vise versa, I believe, go hand in hand. Because your thread IS about the physical world, we can and should discuss what God discusses concerning His scriptures. Psalm 19:1 Romans 1:20 Job 26:7

It is my opinion, rather than isolating scripture 'from' other revelation, that it always should be couched in all revelation and observation. I've contested and still contest: A search for truth makes theology and science, in its truest sense, a pursuit of knowing truth and knowing God.

This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name

Again, a survey of the earth IS given by Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19:1 A 'desire' for a separation? I believe both unbiblical AND artificial. Truth will out, no matter the source because that source is always God. "As" I'd discuss what God says 'is clearly seen that every man is without excuse' is by observing what God has created. If I participate further, I cannot separate God's truths from one another. Read Job 26:7

Btw, did you read the first article? He said some brilliant playful college students, started one of your flat-earth movements, tongue-in-cheek. There was no seriousness to it other than a platform for debate and learning debate, and a certain entertainment value being appointed to the flat-earth side. The other flat-earth movement? Serious, but as far as I can tell, scripturally and observationally (again Job 26:7, Psalm 19:1, and Romans 1:20ff), God has conveyed that the earth is an orb simply by our clear observations. We gather most ideas of the shape of the earth, from scriptures, by inference. Nothing in it says the earth is flat although I do believe, such as Job 26, that 'suspended upon nothing' synchronizes with what we know of our orbit and rotation. I do believe thus, that any mention of seasons and specifics of days, always supports an orbiting globe. "Foundation" nor "pedestal" nor 'pillars' support either flat or globe. Your globe in your house, for instance, cannot be suspended without a foundation or pedestal. None of it can be used to support the one idea that will not immediately support the other idea. Because of that? I don't believe you'll be able to satisfy the prerequisite of your thread: No scripture can be used or misused to support one that will not also immediately support the other, imho. I'll leave you to your thread. I've not other scriptures to present at this time other than ones that tell us to pay attention to other ways God speaks to us. :e4e: -Lon

 

[The Barbarian]

Anyone come up with a feasible flat Earth explanation for a Foucault pendulum?

Anyone?