ECT The Kingdom Upon His Shoulders and D'ism

[Interplanner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS3vpAWW2Zc

The real issue of this Isaiah 9 passage is not whether it is saying the kingdom of God always was--even in the OT--in Christ. That much is clear. The issue is why was the statement needed: the government/kingdom will be upon his shoulders?

That's because 2P2P was already in motion in the 7th century BC and the prophet needed to make clear that the kingdom he was referring to was not going to be the state of Israel as they knew it. It wasn't even going to be a certain sector of Hebrews first of all. It was going to be on His shoulders--Emmanuel's, ie, God with us. Meaning, some of Israel would see/realize this, but the prize was bigger: it was going to be 'to small a thing to restore the fortunes of Israel / I will make you (the Servant) a light to the nations' So it always was going to resonate with the world wide reach of Genesis 3 and 12, not be a 2nd program. It was never meant to confuse the Bible in to a contorted nightmare of divisions and exceptions and non-meaning.

But 2P2P moved forward and Paul had to attack it, as he did in Gal 3:17 with the full force of declaring it to be replacement theology. The world wide offer of the grace of God was replaced with a 2nd program about Israel as a state, about Judaism. That needed to be defeated, because the reign was already 'upon His/Christ's shoulders' and he was already the Counselor, the Peace, the Mighty God.

 

[Interplanner]

On the NT use of Is 9, see Mt 4:14+. No, its not about 2 kingdoms, for those of you in 2P2P who have dualvision.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Lord Jesus made it clear to everyone that the kingdom would not even be near until He returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

That is why the Lord Jesus says that He will not sit upon His throne until He returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Of course there are some people who refuse to believe the Lord Jesus and instead they put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures!

 

[Interplanner]

...and there are others like JerryS who make Christ psychotic, because immediately after the Is 9 quote, Jesus is found preaching to people to repent because the kingdom He and Is 9 were speaking of is right there. Mt. 4:17.

By doing such things, 24x7 on TOL, Only a D'ist would gripe about Islam and Catholicism while making the overall organization of the NT out to be almost spastic.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

...and there are others like JerryS who make Christ psychotic, because immediately after the Is 9 quote, Jesus is found preaching to people to repent because the kingdom He and Is 9 were speaking of is right there. Mt. 4:17.

At Matthew 4:17 the Lord said that the kingdom is at hand so all you are doing is perverting His words to make them conform to your mistaken ideas. Even later, when the Lord Jesus appeared before Pilate shortly before the Cross, He made it plain that His kingdom "is not of this world":

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).​

You say that the kingdom was of the earth while the Lord Jesus walked the earth but He said that it was not!

Why should I believe you instead of the Lord Jesus?

 

[Danoh]

...and there are others like JerryS who make Christ psychotic, because immediately after the Is 9 quote, Jesus is found preaching to people to repent because the kingdom He and Is 9 were speaking of is right there. Mt. 4:17.

By doing such things, 24x7 on TOL, Only a D'ist would gripe about Islam and Catholicism while making the overall organization of the NT out to be almost spastic.

You still failed to address the seeming contradiction posed by the passages that Jerry posted.

Not that attempting to properly reconcile one seeming contradiction or another is always the easy task far too many on all sides of the fence too often only fail to prove.

This being due to where many often only prove: that the reasoning within which they have attempted to reconcile a thing from was itself skewed; failed to take this; that; the other, into consideration.

Nevertheless, Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Interplanner is wrong

Jerry S is right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3nft2WfHJg

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:yawn:

 

[Interplanner]

At Matthew 4:17 the Lord said that the kingdom is at hand so all you are doing is perverting His words to make them conform to your mistaken ideas. Even later, when the Lord Jesus appeared before Pilate shortly before the Cross, He made it plain that His kingdom "is not of this world":

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).​

You say that the kingdom was of the earth while the Lord Jesus walked the earth but He said that it was not!

Why should I believe you instead of the Lord Jesus?

A good question but it does not come down to me vs Christ. 'Not of this world' means like Lk. 22:26 that it does not operate the way the ordinary state power and kingdom does. There is just one thing that empowers the kingdom of God: that God justifies us from our sins in Christ. This is the only weapon of this kingdom. This has overwhelming force for good and rightness, unless a person is delusional, and sadly, many are. But this is why, instead of the disciples' fantasy about a kingdom in Israel, he told them in Acts 1 that they were getting the power of the kingdom for its purposes, which we see in the speeches of Acts 2-3; that God would even forgive that generation for its murder of the son, and wanted them in the mission to the nations which was embedded in the OT since Gen 12 and even in 3.

The fact that you are asking such a question means you really don't understand very much about what the NT is saying.

 

[Interplanner]

Interplanner is wrong

Jerry S is right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3nft2WfHJg

I watched the video. It is completely mistaken. We cannot read the OT as though the NT did not exist. The NT is very clear that all things that were expected have come about in Christ and in the form that they have in Christ. That Christ is now Lord and King is to be preached to all nations. It is also in Christ that God justifies us from our sins, which is the most amazing thing a person can know on this side of death.

The temple that all the prophets were referring to is Christ and those in him, as we can see from Eph 2 and I Peter 2. Or in Corinthians about being the temple of God, collectively (all believers).

It is also in Christ that Rom 3 says that justice has been rendered for all nations. All sins have been punished; all who are sinners are treated better than they deserve. Justice kisses mercy and thus we have a Gospel instead of a nightmare. The Gospel is justification; you can't really get away from the accomplishment of justice and be talking about the Gospel at the same time.

It is because of the ignorance and neglect of justification that smooth videos like this exist as total and utter distractions to what Christ accomplished. For ex., I have been at a "Bible" church now for 2 months, because of needing a rental room, and another unrelated situation; the topic--let alone the word--justification has not been mentioned even once.

Yet what does the apostle preach in Acts 13 as a sample of his customary presentation to synagogue Jews and anyone interested who fears God and was visiting: that the resurrection of Christ accomplished everything God promised to the fathers because it is the seal of justification from sins completed for us.

 

[Interplanner]

The Lord Jesus made it clear to everyone that the kingdom would not even be near until He returns to the earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

That is why the Lord Jesus says that He will not sit upon His throne until He returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Of course there are some people who refuse to believe the Lord Jesus and instead they put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures!

btw, as I have explained prob 1000x here, the NHNE was expected right after the DoJ. But there was also an allowance that it might not, in Mt 24B, in the parable of watchful servants, in 2 Peter 3 (which may be an after-the-fact statement).

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I watched the video. It is completely mistaken. We cannot read the OT as though the NT did not exist. The NT is very clear that all things that were expected have come about in Christ and in the form that they have in Christ. That Christ is now Lord and King is to be preached to all nations. It is also in Christ that God justifies us from our sins, which is the most amazing thing a person can know on this side of death.

The temple that all the prophets were referring to is Christ and those in him, as we can see from Eph 2 and I Peter 2. Or in Corinthians about being the temple of God, collectively (all believers).

It is also in Christ that Rom 3 says that justice has been rendered for all nations. All sins have been punished; all who are sinners are treated better than they deserve. Justice kisses mercy and thus we have a Gospel instead of a nightmare. The Gospel is justification; you can't really get away from the accomplishment of justice and be talking about the Gospel at the same time.

It is because of the ignorance and neglect of justification that smooth videos like this exist as total and utter distractions to what Christ accomplished. For ex., I have been at a "Bible" church now for 2 months, because of needing a rental room, and another unrelated situation; the topic--let alone the word--justification has not been mentioned even once.

Yet what does the apostle preach in Acts 13 as a sample of his customary presentation to synagogue Jews and anyone interested who fears God and was visiting: that the resurrection of Christ accomplished everything God promised to the fathers because it is the seal of justification from sins completed for us.

Interplanner is still wrong

Jerry S is still right

BTW you said; "We cannot read the OT as though the NT did not exist" Actually the NT did not exist till after the OT was written, you mean; "We cannot read the OT as though the NT does not exist"

 

[Interplanner]

Interplanner is still wrong

Jerry S is still right

BTW you said; "We cannot read the OT as though the NT did not exist" Actually the NT did not exist till after the OT was written, you mean; "We cannot read the OT as though the NT does not exist"

lol, I did mean that. 2P2P has made you unable to track and conclude properly. You are reading Ezekiel as though the list above does about the temple does not exist. And also, as though the overwhelming event of the destruction of Judaism's temple did not happen.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

lol, I did mean that. 2P2P has made you unable to track and conclude properly. You are reading Ezekiel as though the list above does about the temple does not exist. And also, as though the overwhelming event of the destruction of Judaism's temple did not happen.

And you're reading or ignoring scriptures that state three more temples are to come; Ezekiel & Revelation.

 

[Danoh]

And you're reading or ignoring scriptures that state three more temples are to come; Ezekiel & Revelation.

He has a point.

And yet he is still wrong.

But so is that video - for all that video focused on was on the Prophetic aspect of God's plan and purpose: The Earth.

Which is basically this here...

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

This here - The Mystery aspect of God's plan and purpose: The Heavens, would not have been, and was not, neither Ezekiel's nor John's focus...

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I take it once more that you hold to an Acts 2 Dispensationalism?

Consider the Acts 9 :thumb:

Nevertheless, Rom. 14: 5; 5: 6-8.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The fact that you are asking such a question means you really don't understand very much about what the NT is saying.

Irony...

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yet what does the apostle preach in Acts 13 as a sample of his customary presentation to synagogue Jews and anyone interested who fears God and was visiting: that the resurrection of Christ accomplished everything God promised to the fathers because it is the seal of justification from sins completed for us.

You reiterate this lie every chance you get.