ECT WHEN WAS PETER SAVED BY LAW OR GRACE ??
- Thread starter DAN P
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Psalms 103:12 (KJV)
I believe the LORD Jesus is the scapegoat, as sin/death/hell are destroyed in Revelation.
marhig
Well-known member
Jesus is no goat, he's the lamb, and he came to separate the sheep from the goats.
marhig
Well-known member
Jesus is no scapegoat, he the high priest he's more like this as seen here in Leviticus 16 after the verses regarding the scapegoat
Leviticus 16:29 (onward)
And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
marhig
Well-known member
You've forgotten something, all the blood is poured out before the sacrifice is put through the fire. This is the poured out life.
Christ sacrificed his whole life for us! He laid down his life to live by the will of God and bare witness to the truth for us.
lifeisgood
New member
I found this article quite interesting:
The Scapegoat Dilemma by John P. Pratt
The results of this investigation suggest that the standard Christian interpretation of the scapegoat as representing Christ is probably in error. The more straightforward Hebrew interpretation that Azazel is Satan can be explained in terms of Christian doctrine by the Book of Enoch. In particular, the goat "for Jehovah" is indeed Jesus Christ, who atoned and was sacrificed for all the sins of mankind. But the other goat, the scapegoat "for Azazel," also bears the weight of the sins of all mankind because Satan (Azazel) is ultimately responsible for them all. And he will be punished for them, first by being cast into the bottomless pit, and later by being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone at the last day. This ceremony teaches these two truths simultaneously.
One practical lesson to be learned is that it can be very difficult to judge between the two nearly identical goats, representing Christ and a false Christ. Jesus appeared to the Jews to be a false Christ. They believed He performed His miracles by Satan's power (Luke 11:15) and some may have thought they were doing Jehovah a service by crucifying Him (compare John 16:2). Even though they were fulfilling scriptural prophecy, the Jews chose poorly between Barabbas and Christ.
Perhaps next time the choice will be between two lambs instead of two goats (Rev. 13:11). Satan is the great deceiver and can do miracles (Rev. 13:13-15). He disguises himself in sheep's clothing (Mat. 7:15). The Savior warned us not to be deceived by false Christs who will show great signs and wonders, who will, were it possible, deceive the very elect (Mat. 24:24).
http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2009/scapegoat.html
The Scapegoat Dilemma by John P. Pratt
The results of this investigation suggest that the standard Christian interpretation of the scapegoat as representing Christ is probably in error. The more straightforward Hebrew interpretation that Azazel is Satan can be explained in terms of Christian doctrine by the Book of Enoch. In particular, the goat "for Jehovah" is indeed Jesus Christ, who atoned and was sacrificed for all the sins of mankind. But the other goat, the scapegoat "for Azazel," also bears the weight of the sins of all mankind because Satan (Azazel) is ultimately responsible for them all. And he will be punished for them, first by being cast into the bottomless pit, and later by being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone at the last day. This ceremony teaches these two truths simultaneously.
One practical lesson to be learned is that it can be very difficult to judge between the two nearly identical goats, representing Christ and a false Christ. Jesus appeared to the Jews to be a false Christ. They believed He performed His miracles by Satan's power (Luke 11:15) and some may have thought they were doing Jehovah a service by crucifying Him (compare John 16:2). Even though they were fulfilling scriptural prophecy, the Jews chose poorly between Barabbas and Christ.
Perhaps next time the choice will be between two lambs instead of two goats (Rev. 13:11). Satan is the great deceiver and can do miracles (Rev. 13:13-15). He disguises himself in sheep's clothing (Mat. 7:15). The Savior warned us not to be deceived by false Christs who will show great signs and wonders, who will, were it possible, deceive the very elect (Mat. 24:24).
http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2009/scapegoat.html
This is biblical.
I understand you are sharing this as interesting, but it is no good. Jesus is our scape goat. Don't forget John 3:14-17. And never forget Hebrews 13:13.
People like this Pratt fellow are bad news to the good news. He is even incorporating non-canonical resource into his doctrine. If Jesus isn't He who went outside the camp bearing our shame as Hebrews 13:13 says, then we have no access to the Father. This teaching is at the heart of most Judaizers that connect works to salvation. They are slippery devils too, because they'll say faith and then place the burden of sin and salvation on works. These sort Lie like no other and subtly deceive in ways that are soul destroying.
This Pratt fellow is ignoring the finished work of the cross and bolstering doctrine that undoes the work of Jesus.
Only people who deny His Divinity or that faith alone saves us would misunderstand Hebrews 13:13 and John 3:14-16.
The perfect Lamb became the goat of goats to allow us goats to be seen as perfect before the Father upon belief.
2 Cor. 5:21 For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
The only people that would read these verses and dismiss them are this sort,
Romans 10:13 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God
God's Truth
New member
Does a Lamb without blemish mean anything to you?
Jesus didn't become a goat. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
Show where in scripture that says Jesus is the Goat of God.
Don't let the imagination take you away from the Truth.
God's Truth
New member
Establishing one's own righteousness was a command from God in the old testament times.
God told the people of the works of the law that they had to do.
The Jews had the works of the law to atone for themselves.
They had to clean themselves.
Don't confuse doing right and abstaining from evil as the works of the law.
Works of the law are about cleaning yourself and dealing with the sin nature ALL BY YOURSELF.
A person had to get circumcised, adhere to a dietary law, observe special days, do various external washings, and sacrifice animals.
Now Jesus cleans us.
We no longer have to do the works of the law, but we still have to obey!
The Jews didn't want to stop doing those works of the law, they wanted to keep circumcising, and observing special days, etc.
They would not accept it that Jesus' blood cleaned them ONCE AND FOR ALL.
God's Truth
New member
You go against me for preaching obedience to Christ.
If you refuse then continue to sin.
You will be repaid for what you do.
marhig
Well-known member
I'm sorry but Jesus was never a goat in any way whatsoever! he may well have come into this sinful flesh, but he denied himself completely and never sinned even through all his temptations, and he was a lamb without spot or blemish, pure in the sight of the living God. Not once did he sin as we do. So no he was no goat! And he separated the sheep from the goats and those who belong to him, hear his voice and follow him!
And we are saved through faith, by the grace of God. And from then on we are to be doers of the word and not hearers only, and live by the will of God
And I think you need to carry on reading what Jesus said in John 3
John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
"And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land"
(Leviticus 16:20-22)
The innocent scapegoat bore sin to an uninhabited land. The ultimate uninhabited land is the grave.
Jesus was an innocent scapegoat who bore sin to an uninhabited land, his grave.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
marhig
Well-known member
I'm sorry Jamie, that's not true, Jesus is no goat, show me in the New testament where Jesus is referred to as a goat? He's always referred to as the lamb of God never a goat. He came to separate the sheep from the goats. And, the lamb is a youngster, Jesus had the innocence of a babe, a lamb!
God's Truth
New member
The Lamb atoned for the sins.
John's language was figurative, Jesus was not a literal lamb.
As a rule we don't eat humans, but lamb chops are good.
The goat was figurative. Jesus was actually human.
We don't normally eat humans, but cabrito ... yummm!
marhig
Well-known member
I know what you mean, but even figuratively, Jesus is no goat and figuratively he is referred to as a lamb. And I've never seen him referred to as a goat in the New testament. Have you?