ECT What is wrong with homosexuality - a primer for Christians and response
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
I think she meant something along the following.
One time, I was sitting in the lobby of an assembly waiting for someone, as I could still hear the preaching going on in the assembly hall, through speakers in the lobby.
A visiting Roman Catholic stormed out of the assembly hall where a preaching about the simplicity of the Cross was going on.
I asked her what was wrong.
She said she could not believe what the preacher had just said.
Jeffrey Dahmer, the infamous sodomite and serial killer had recently been murdered and was all the news.
The preacher mentioned that Dahmer had recently stated having trusted the Lord for his salvation.
I saw that interview. Dahmer had related that even though he now believed that the blood of Christ had washed him clean of all his sins, he pleaded he not be let out of prison; that he was still experiencing his powerful urges.
Anyway, the preacher had mentioned that if Dahmer had actually meant what he'd said about having trusted the Lord, then he was now in glory.
The woman was livid that that preacher had said this.
What the preacher was saying is what I believe Totten meant by her assertion that all are equal AT the Cross.
That preacher also noted that Saul of Tarsus had been worse than Dahmer - that Saul had had a hand in the killing of saints!
As we say in Mid-Acts - "the ground is level at the foot of the Cross."
People on their way to hell think that way. They think they are better than the others. And having read her posts here on many things, I can easily say she is outside the faith. She backs up immoral behavior in other areas also. It isn't about salvation, she excuses wickedness.
If such is the case, then I stand corrected as to what I believed she had meant.
Other than that; my post still stands as to the simplicity of the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
In other words...
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
andyc
New member
Hi Nikolai
I shall have a look at your post more deeply later, but one thing I'm wondering is, do you believe God gave the apostle Paul up to his own lusts?
1 Timothy 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Do you believe that Paul became the chief of sinners because God gave him up to carry out his desires?
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Gotcha.
Bein' there is gonna be better than here, but I'm kinda enjoyin' the trip.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The short answer is "No". I don't believe Paul was "given over". The thrust of Romans 1 in identifying sexual perversion is not in the context of what might be called run-of-the-mill sin and unbelief. It is specifically addressing the situation in which a people have persistently, repeatedly and wholeheartedly resisted the Truth, rebelled against God and rejected the light He has given them. Paul says that when that level and extent of idolatry is present, God essentially removes His hand of restraint and man learns just how depraved he is without God holding him back. Refer again to Ezekiel 8 and 9. The abominations Ezekiel saw were idolatries of the grossest sort - and in the temple of God! So what did God do? He departed the temple and then judged the people (see Ezekiel 9 for the judgment). Jesus said it would be easier for Sodom and Gomorrah than for Israel that rejected Him when He appeared because if they had the light Israel had, Jesus said they would have repented. The Jews suffered unbelievably in the 70AD sacking of Jerusalem. And Jesus even told them on the way to His own death...weep not for Me, but for yourselves because in that judgment, men will think it better never to have lived than to suffer so (Luke 23:28-30).
The West has had the light of the gospel for some time now - and has benefitted from that light in ways too numerous to count (religious, political and economic liberty being among them - these being only temporal blessings). But when such a people turn their backs on the Truth in such large numbers and with such aggression, one cannot help but see the sins of Romans 1 being fruits of that simmering and growing idolatry that has taken root in the hearts of men in our affluent society. As bad and as extreme as was Sodom and Gomorrah (which was emphatically judged), the depths of depravity and extent of judgment that we are suffering (and will suffer in the not too distant future unless some great repentance takes place in our midst) will continue to worsen until it is judged in righteousness. All because a people that had the light rejected the light because of their inveterate idolatry.
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Matthew 6:22-23
EDIT : I hope that makes it clear why I don't see Paul as "given over" and that Romans 1 is talking about an extreme situation that has been witnessed several times in history - and what we are witnessing today.
andyc
New member
Hi Nikolai
If I broke your post down in quotes, it would be a huge long post, so I'll get to the point where I disagree with what you're saying.
I believe you have adopted an old testament view of God's judgement. When you look at the Romans passage, Paul is talking about gentiles who sinned against conscience, with no covenant of mercy in place to reach those who became slaves to their own lusts.
Paul explains that the sins of the gentiles were/are great, and the Jews assumed that they were better. But the key point is, why should the Jew think he is better? What basis?
The gentiles sinned without the law, but the Jews sinned with the law. If the gentiles deserve judgment for sinning against conscience, the Jews deserve greater judgement for sinning against God's moral law.
You are using the judgement of God in the old testament, and applying it in the new.
However, the apostle Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners, which means he believed he was the worst of sinners. Now we know that Paul was not an adulterer or a homosexual, but Paul looked upon his own sins as being as bad as they could get. Nothing, including homosexuality, was worse than the crimes he committed (from his perspective). His reasoning for this was to boldly proclaim that if God could save him, he can save anyone...unless.....
The man that God cannot save, is the man who stands defiantly against the gospel, and repels conviction from the Holy Spirit.
Your view, that many in this generation are being given over to their own lusts, and are falling into the judgement they supposedly deserve, is the same view that Paul was actually warning against in chapter 2.
1 Cor 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 1 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
If I broke your post down in quotes, it would be a huge long post, so I'll get to the point where I disagree with what you're saying.
I believe you have adopted an old testament view of God's judgement. When you look at the Romans passage, Paul is talking about gentiles who sinned against conscience, with no covenant of mercy in place to reach those who became slaves to their own lusts.
Paul explains that the sins of the gentiles were/are great, and the Jews assumed that they were better. But the key point is, why should the Jew think he is better? What basis?
The gentiles sinned without the law, but the Jews sinned with the law. If the gentiles deserve judgment for sinning against conscience, the Jews deserve greater judgement for sinning against God's moral law.
You are using the judgement of God in the old testament, and applying it in the new.
However, the apostle Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners, which means he believed he was the worst of sinners. Now we know that Paul was not an adulterer or a homosexual, but Paul looked upon his own sins as being as bad as they could get. Nothing, including homosexuality, was worse than the crimes he committed (from his perspective). His reasoning for this was to boldly proclaim that if God could save him, he can save anyone...unless.....
The man that God cannot save, is the man who stands defiantly against the gospel, and repels conviction from the Holy Spirit.
Your view, that many in this generation are being given over to their own lusts, and are falling into the judgement they supposedly deserve, is the same view that Paul was actually warning against in chapter 2.
1 Cor 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 1 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Dope
Was Nick right - that what I posted about what you might have meant by "Everyone is equal at the cross" - was wrong; is not what you had meant?
andyc
New member
Yes all are equal at the cross, there MUST be no discrimination. But a cruxial part of that is that YES there was true repentance and that YES the new creation was imparted...I can't do that, no messenger of the gospel can, the modern way of getting people to simply recite a prayer or come to the front will not make somebody a Christian....this is how it is that we have so many, many unregenerate people in the church advocating for all kind of tolerance for their sin.
I said Nick was a dope because he is a dope, the immoral behaviour he accuses me of and for which in his dopy opinion I am not saved is that I believe the rich should pay taxes to fund public services for the poor.
Conservatives of his ilk do not think it immoral that I should pay more tax to give millionaires a tax BREAK.
What a skew brained way of thinking.
I said Nick was a dope because he is a dope, the immoral behaviour he accuses me of and for which in his dopy opinion I am not saved is that I believe the rich should pay taxes to fund public services for the poor.
Conservatives of his ilk do not think it immoral that I should pay more tax to give millionaires a tax BREAK.
What a skew brained way of thinking.
1 Timothy 2:4 states: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." That is God's will. However, God created humanity with a free will."
Delete
Lon
Well-known member
Marriage contrasted against facsimile
Marriage contrasted against facsimile
Marriage is something specifically and exclusively in any joined/sexual sense created by God:
God has create every relationship on earth for specific reasons.
1) Fathers and mothers, to emulate God as Creator and parent and is specifically the result/from the framework of marriage.
2) Husband and wife Genesis 1:26-27 to reflect God's image (..."in His own image, He create him/her/them..."), thus also specifically the result of, and from the frame-work of only marriage.
3) Children as subject and learning to be subject to the Lord and is specifically the result and from the framework of marriage.
4) Etc.
Every relationship that is set up by God and blessed by God provide people individually and collectively to participate in and learn spiritual truths from God and are designed by Him for the framework of all Biblical truth. This, btw, is why we also know Christianity is true. No other religion provides the framework of family for understanding theology and where we fit in God's universe.
I. Marriage ( II. would be Family but is omitted here in this post)
Marriage is specifically created by God. In Genesis 1:28, one reason given is 'to subdue the earth and be caretakers of it, to be fruitful, and to produce beings to do the same.'
In Genesis 2:7,15 God created man, alone. God designed a woman as a counterpart for him, specifically as a companion, helper, and the being by which other men/woman would come into the world.
It is important from Genesis 2:16-25 to note that God joined them together, that they were flesh of flesh and bone of bone, literally from Adam, but God made mention that to this day, a married couple becomes one flesh. From this point, it is essential to travel a few thousand years to the Lord Jesus Christ. Marriage isn't just God's 'idea' for one relationship. It is His specific creation and God, Himself, does something very specific when two people, a man and a woman from different families, are married. Mark 10:8&9 says first, that God joins them together. They both certainly agree to a joining to be united, but Jesus says literally, God does the binding (vers 8) and Second, that what God (monegistically-'God does by Himself') no one is supposed to eliminate.
People who understand this, and belong to God (Christians) cannot then divorce if they call Him Lord. Realize that Christians do divorce, as did the Jews, but Jesus was clear to say that it was weakness of flesh. His prohibition was specifically there for those who 'wanted to obey God' and were under the impression that God was doing something, in reality, that nobody was supposed to be able to break.
Why is this important? Specifically, in marriage, God is doing something. Most specifically, for Christians: We recognize that this union called marriage, is specifically a work of God that cannot be fabricated or reproduced.
"But we see fabrications all the time."
No, not really. They aren't able to reproduce 'what God Himself binds together.' Nobody can do God's work for Him and all knock-offs will happen without Him doing anything to create this "oneness."
Christians, as Hebrews 11 reminds us: "Look for a place whose Author and Builder is God." Unless the Lord builds the house, the labor is vanity. -Psalm 127:1
In a very specific way, God designed the marriage union between a man and a woman to be a picture and the enactment of Christ's love for His church. Ephesians 5:22-33
A message for single people:
A) "It was not good for man (Adam) to be alone." -Genesis 2:18,20
Originally, people wouldn't have been caught up in being alone or worrying. There was no selfishness or sin complication. Men and women would have naturally found one another without fanfare. The result of the Fall of man and woman into sin, left problems and consequences. Adam wouldn't have felt lonliness and nowhere as pronounced as the effects of sin that have exacerbated and pronounced it in us. As a child of a single-parent family and an absent mother at that, I empathize greatly with feelings of inadequacy and accentuated lonliness.
Sin is so dire, that it not only removes us from thinking we can be loved, it also creates havoc in relationships so that what is longed for in the first place cannot reach beyond the barrier of two sinful-broken lives. It truly takes a work of God. "What God has joined together, let no one put assunder."
B)In Matthew 19:10, the apostles responded that if sin was so devastating that even marriages joined by God couldn't last, then men should rather remain unmarried. Jesus responded that those who could, should remain single. Paul echoed this in 1 Corinthians 7:7 and in 7:32 explains why it is better, even with lonliness/longing, to remain single if possible. A chapter earlier we read "...the body is for the Lord, and the Lord for the body, not fulfilling fleshly desire..."
In a very specific way, God designed the marriage union between a man and a woman to be a picture and the enactment of Christ's love for His church. Ephesians 5:22-33
If being united as 'one flesh' as a lone-act by God is mysterious, the apostle Paul certainly echoes that His work alone is beyond our full understanding with Ephesians 5:32 but we catch a glimpse of it: Somehow, the Christian, in obedience in marriage isn't just fulfilling a selfish whim: it is the very act of God, even in our falleness. Somehow, the man loving his wife, embodies and expounds the love of Christ for a fallen race. The very act of a woman loving her husband, brings to mind and ministers to people everywhere, the gospel of Christ.
It is so important then, to realize what a perversion it is to mimick the act of marriage or family without the monergist (God's work all alone that only He can do) creation of God in those expressions. We as Christians would not only proceed without His hand and work, but in self-will reject what He designs in favor of what our own interests and will are regardless. In a practical sense, we as Christians take up our cross and follow Him daily Luke 9:23
Anything less than God's creation and is against it, is folly for a believer and, in fact, a mockery of what He designed for good.
*This will only really help, make sense, and benefit a Christian and those dealing with Christians that do not understand that God created order and that He alone is the Author of the Marriage institution. The law of the U.S. cannot give what only God can. By definition, the only thing that can be called a marriage is specifically "what God has joined together."
I pray this may help some of you explain this better to Christians who want to know 'why not homosexuality' or 'how do I explain this in rational terms?" His blessings -Lon
Marriage contrasted against facsimile
Marriage is something specifically and exclusively in any joined/sexual sense created by God:
God has create every relationship on earth for specific reasons.
1) Fathers and mothers, to emulate God as Creator and parent and is specifically the result/from the framework of marriage.
2) Husband and wife Genesis 1:26-27 to reflect God's image (..."in His own image, He create him/her/them..."), thus also specifically the result of, and from the frame-work of only marriage.
3) Children as subject and learning to be subject to the Lord and is specifically the result and from the framework of marriage.
4) Etc.
Every relationship that is set up by God and blessed by God provide people individually and collectively to participate in and learn spiritual truths from God and are designed by Him for the framework of all Biblical truth. This, btw, is why we also know Christianity is true. No other religion provides the framework of family for understanding theology and where we fit in God's universe.
I. Marriage ( II. would be Family but is omitted here in this post)
Marriage is specifically created by God. In Genesis 1:28, one reason given is 'to subdue the earth and be caretakers of it, to be fruitful, and to produce beings to do the same.'
In Genesis 2:7,15 God created man, alone. God designed a woman as a counterpart for him, specifically as a companion, helper, and the being by which other men/woman would come into the world.
It is important from Genesis 2:16-25 to note that God joined them together, that they were flesh of flesh and bone of bone, literally from Adam, but God made mention that to this day, a married couple becomes one flesh. From this point, it is essential to travel a few thousand years to the Lord Jesus Christ. Marriage isn't just God's 'idea' for one relationship. It is His specific creation and God, Himself, does something very specific when two people, a man and a woman from different families, are married. Mark 10:8&9 says first, that God joins them together. They both certainly agree to a joining to be united, but Jesus says literally, God does the binding (vers 8) and Second, that what God (monegistically-'God does by Himself') no one is supposed to eliminate.
People who understand this, and belong to God (Christians) cannot then divorce if they call Him Lord. Realize that Christians do divorce, as did the Jews, but Jesus was clear to say that it was weakness of flesh. His prohibition was specifically there for those who 'wanted to obey God' and were under the impression that God was doing something, in reality, that nobody was supposed to be able to break.
Why is this important? Specifically, in marriage, God is doing something. Most specifically, for Christians: We recognize that this union called marriage, is specifically a work of God that cannot be fabricated or reproduced.
"But we see fabrications all the time."
No, not really. They aren't able to reproduce 'what God Himself binds together.' Nobody can do God's work for Him and all knock-offs will happen without Him doing anything to create this "oneness."
Christians, as Hebrews 11 reminds us: "Look for a place whose Author and Builder is God." Unless the Lord builds the house, the labor is vanity. -Psalm 127:1
In a very specific way, God designed the marriage union between a man and a woman to be a picture and the enactment of Christ's love for His church. Ephesians 5:22-33
A message for single people:
A) "It was not good for man (Adam) to be alone." -Genesis 2:18,20
Originally, people wouldn't have been caught up in being alone or worrying. There was no selfishness or sin complication. Men and women would have naturally found one another without fanfare. The result of the Fall of man and woman into sin, left problems and consequences. Adam wouldn't have felt lonliness and nowhere as pronounced as the effects of sin that have exacerbated and pronounced it in us. As a child of a single-parent family and an absent mother at that, I empathize greatly with feelings of inadequacy and accentuated lonliness.
Sin is so dire, that it not only removes us from thinking we can be loved, it also creates havoc in relationships so that what is longed for in the first place cannot reach beyond the barrier of two sinful-broken lives. It truly takes a work of God. "What God has joined together, let no one put assunder."
B)In Matthew 19:10, the apostles responded that if sin was so devastating that even marriages joined by God couldn't last, then men should rather remain unmarried. Jesus responded that those who could, should remain single. Paul echoed this in 1 Corinthians 7:7 and in 7:32 explains why it is better, even with lonliness/longing, to remain single if possible. A chapter earlier we read "...the body is for the Lord, and the Lord for the body, not fulfilling fleshly desire..."
In a very specific way, God designed the marriage union between a man and a woman to be a picture and the enactment of Christ's love for His church. Ephesians 5:22-33
If being united as 'one flesh' as a lone-act by God is mysterious, the apostle Paul certainly echoes that His work alone is beyond our full understanding with Ephesians 5:32 but we catch a glimpse of it: Somehow, the Christian, in obedience in marriage isn't just fulfilling a selfish whim: it is the very act of God, even in our falleness. Somehow, the man loving his wife, embodies and expounds the love of Christ for a fallen race. The very act of a woman loving her husband, brings to mind and ministers to people everywhere, the gospel of Christ.
It is so important then, to realize what a perversion it is to mimick the act of marriage or family without the monergist (God's work all alone that only He can do) creation of God in those expressions. We as Christians would not only proceed without His hand and work, but in self-will reject what He designs in favor of what our own interests and will are regardless. In a practical sense, we as Christians take up our cross and follow Him daily Luke 9:23
Anything less than God's creation and is against it, is folly for a believer and, in fact, a mockery of what He designed for good.
*This will only really help, make sense, and benefit a Christian and those dealing with Christians that do not understand that God created order and that He alone is the Author of the Marriage institution. The law of the U.S. cannot give what only God can. By definition, the only thing that can be called a marriage is specifically "what God has joined together."
I pray this may help some of you explain this better to Christians who want to know 'why not homosexuality' or 'how do I explain this in rational terms?" His blessings -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Matthew 24:24 Mark 13:22
Lon
Well-known member
There is agreement on this point:
There is no 'waiting until marriage' or vow of purity within homosexuality.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Lon
Well-known member
1Co 6:13
"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
1Co 6:14
And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
1Co 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
1Co 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."
1Co 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
1Co 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
1Co 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
1Co 6:20
for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
1Co 6:14
And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
1Co 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
1Co 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."
1Co 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
1Co 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
1Co 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
1Co 6:20
for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.