ECT Is God Moral?

Is God Moral?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 96.2%
  • No

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Total voters
    26

glorydaz

Well-known member
I'm not sure that you understood my question.

I'm not talking about the things that God does that maybe we can't understand because of a lack of perspective or knowledge. I'm asking a PURELY hypothetical question that is philosophical in nature. I'm asking what if God where to do something that we obviously know the real God would never actually do, something completely and absurdly evil like appear in physical form and sexually assault all the five year old kids in Los Angeles at once.

Would such an action make God an evil god or would it merely alter the definition of the words 'good' and 'evil'?

My answer is the former, not the later. God is objectively good and if He were to do evil, He would be evil. Having said that, you are not wrong when you say that He is the standard or morality but perhaps not in the sense in which you mean it. My goal here is to present a rationally coherent Christian ethic and code of morality as well as to show that what passes in most Christian's minds as a moral standard renders God amoral and unwittingly hands a victory to atheists.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Oh, well, when you put it that way, I agree with what you're saying. In other words, a Holy and Righteous God would NEVER create man with the inability to come to Him for salvation. He would never choose certain people to be saved while damning others to hell.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
It's not your call.

So we just accept anyone's view of God that makes him immoral. Beautiful. Just freakin' beautiful.

I prefer to honor God and keep my head intact, thus I am able to say, "No God would never have Joshua kill off an entire village any more than he told ISIS to do it," or "No, God would never create people with no real ability to choose and them condemn them for their predestined choices."
 

revpete

New member
Maybe you can explain how Adam's losing his state of innocence corrupted his morality?

Enlighten me.:)

Ok, Adam was created in God's image, right? That means His morality was perfect, right? What he did not posses however was God's incorruptability. The same as the angels did not posses it. Lucifer's perfect morality was corrupted and the same goes for the rest of the angels that fell with him. They all had perfect morality having been created by God but they did not posses His incorruptability and so fell. All I have done here is to 're-word my first post.

If you believe that Adam's morality remained perfect after his fall then you believe in partial fall not a complete one. However, I'm interested to know what you think. Would you care to enlighten me?

Pete 👤
 

genuineoriginal

New member
So we just accept anyone's view of God that makes him immoral. Beautiful. Just freakin' beautiful.
You are responding to a post that is claiming that we humans are not able to decide whether God is moral or immoral by our standards.
Since we are not able to decide, we cannot just accept anyone's view.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Please explain what you mean by "love is subjective".

I mean what I read in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. Those descriptions of love suggest subjectivity not objectivity, right?

When a child molester claims he "loves" children, are you unwilling to say that he is wrong?

No, he's wrong. While love is subjective, it can be tested by objective criteria, like sexual maturity and design.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
You are responding to a post that is claiming that we humans are not able to decide whether God is moral or immoral by our standards.
Since we are not able to decide, we cannot just accept anyone's view.

I hope not, because the God expressed in Joshua is certainly not a moral being. I prefer to think Joshua was immoral for saying his God told him to act like ISIS.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I hope not, because the God expressed in Joshua is certainly not a moral being. I prefer to think Joshua was immoral for saying his God told him to act like ISIS.

Just because you think God did not do RIGHT, doesn't mean He didn't. I'm sure you don't like the idea that people reap what they sow, either.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Read my post again please and you will get it.

No, he won't.


I have a question for you..


When you say "perfectly moral" do you mean "morally perfect"?

If so, then yes, Adam was in fact morally perfect before he ate of the Tree.

To say someone is moral is to say that the terms "good" and "evil" apply to them in a meaningful way. In other words, when you say that someone is good, you are saying that their thoughts and actions have been consistent with a standard. This standard is what morality is. To accept the idea that one can be good or evil while rejecting the notion that they are moral is to commit a "Stolen Concept Fallacy"*.

And no, I do not think that Adam's fall was a result of some inherent moral deficiency. We have God's own testimony that His creation, including both Adam and Eve, were "very good". Adam fell because he chose to do so. He chose to learn good and evil via the tree rather than via a relationship with his Creator.

Resting in Him,
Clete


* The “stolen concept” fallacy, first identified by Ayn Rand, is the fallacy of using a concept while denying the validity of its genetic roots, i.e., of an earlier concept(s) on which it logically depends.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The question is the cheese, so lets see what happens when Clete tries to spring the trap...

:chuckle:
No trap. Just how I chose to begin the conversation.

God is righteous, good and holy. The Word claims all of these to be true.

But there are things that are true of God that would be immoral for a creature.
Quite so!

For example; it is immoral for a mere human to receive worship.
It is not immoral for God to receive worship, its just.
Very true.

Its immoral for a man to knowingly bring destruction on people.
The scriptures are clear that God does exactly this.
This is probably right in the way you mean it but you could be more careful with your wording. For example, God delegates authority to the governing official to punish criminals even to the point of executing them. And it is not unjust for a nation to go to war (i.e. to kill people and break things) in defense against a hostile nation. Nor is it immoral for me to kill another person in defense of myself or my family and in some cases my home and possessions.

It is immoral for man to change God's law.
God can change His own law whenever it suits His plan and purpose.
As our Creator God does have the authority to change the rules which govern our behavior but that does not imply that God does so in some arbitrary or capricious or unjust manner. God does things for reasons that are consistent with a standard of morality that does not change and that gives meaning to the passages in Scripture that say God is righteous and just (same thing).

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I mean what I read in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. Those descriptions of love suggest subjectivity not objectivity, right?



No, he's wrong. While love is subjective, it can be tested by objective criteria, like sexual maturity and design.
Well, you don't get to have it both ways. Love is either subjective or it is objective, not both.

Perhaps its an issue of defining terms...

Subjective: Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. "His views are highly subjective."

Objective: Based on facts rather than feelings or opinions : not influenced by feelings.​

So in the case of love, the word have various meanings depending on the context but regardless of whether you are talking about something someone "feels in their heart" or the decision to act in another's best interests, the fact is that a person either "feels it in his heart" or he doesn't -or- he acts in another's best interests or he doesn't. The child molester may "feel something in his heart" but even that we can objectively declare as perversion, not love precisely because of its subject matter.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I hope not, because the God expressed in Joshua is certainly not a moral being. I prefer to think Joshua was immoral for saying his God told him to act like ISIS.

Umm, excuse me but please refrain from blasphemy!

There is a reason I put this thread in the Exclusively Christian Forum.

At the risk of causing you to further blaspheme God, I want to ask a couple of question?

Can you give any defense of this statement? By what conceivable standard could to draw the conclusion that God, as presented in scripture, is not moral?

And for the sake of clarification, when you say "not moral", do you mean "immoral" or "amoral"?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
So we just accept anyone's view of God that makes him immoral. Beautiful. Just freakin' beautiful.

I prefer to honor God and keep my head intact, thus I am able to say, "No God would never have Joshua kill off an entire village any more than he told ISIS to do it," or "No, God would never create people with no real ability to choose and them condemn them for their predestined choices."
You equate two things that are not equivalent in the slightest. You're quite right that it would be unjust (i.e. immoral) for God to condemn (i.e. send to an eternal Hell) someone for actions that they did not choose but it is not immoral for God to physically kill a human being for whatever reason He chooses. We only have life because He gives it to us. Our every breath is a mercy of God's. Our physical lives comprise only a tiny fraction of the time we will exist. It is eternity that counts.

At the second coming when believers are all changed in the blink of an eye, our physical lives will end very abruptly and without warning. You don't consider that snuffing out of our physical lives to be unjust, do you? It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. We are not entitled to our next breath in this life.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Ok, Adam was created in God's image, right? That means His morality was perfect, right? What he did not posses however was God's incorruptability. The same as the angels did not posses it. Lucifer's perfect morality was corrupted and the same goes for the rest of the angels that fell with him. They all had perfect morality having been created by God but they did not posses His incorruptability and so fell. All I have done here is to 're-word my first post.

If you believe that Adam's morality remained perfect after his fall then you believe in partial fall not a complete one. However, I'm interested to know what you think. Would you care to enlighten me?

Pete 👤
Please clarify...

Where in scripture do we read of God's incorruptibility?

Do you believe that God has no volition?

Or are you simply stating that God chooses to remain just and because He is omnipotent cannot be made to act unjustly and is therefore incorruptible?

The distinction is an important one because without volition, morality is meaningless.


Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
To say someone is moral is to say that the terms "good" and "evil" apply to them in a meaningful way. In other words, when you say that someone is good, you are saying that their thoughts and actions have been consistent with a standard. This standard is what morality is. To accept the idea that one can be good or evil while rejecting the notion that they are moral is to commit a "Stolen Concept Fallacy"*.

So where does that standard come from?

Both those who say there is an absolute standard applicable to both God and us and those who say that God is the standard and it springs from his own personality suffer from similar logical problems.

1) Those who say it comes from God's own nature and is therefore consistent answer the problem of coherence but defer the problem of arbitrariness to God's own nature. If it were in God's nature to randomly murder babies or send shooters into schools, then we ought to perceive such things as good things. But no one perceives such things as good. So the idea that the standard of good comes from God's nature doesn't accord with common sense. Common sense tells us that (at least in some cases) the goodness or evil of some situation speaks for itself.

2) Those who say that the standard of morality is absolute, require that there be a law written somewhere that somehow transfers itself to our awareness whenever we see or do things and allows us to judge them. The origin of such a standard has to my mind never been explained.

In both cases, the existence of some kind of moral standard suffers from a serious practical defect, namely that there is no language we can use to codify such a standard without descending into irrelevance and contradiction. For example those who say that God's own character is the source of morality would probably suggest that whether some action is right or not is answered by reference to what God would do in that same situation. However, that kind of answer is by definition always hypothetical. The fact is that it is you in that situation, not God.
And for those who assert there is an absolute standard, any rules they seek to impose on some situation quickly develop exceptions, like the lying versus protection ethics that have already been discussed ad infinitum. I think it is fair to say that any conceivable rule you could formulate would be valid at most on 50% of the situations where it could apply. Which means that if one follows these rules legalistically, one will be making errors of judgement 50% of the time.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Well, you don't get to have it both ways. Love is either subjective or it is objective, not both.

I'm not trying to have it both ways. Love is subjective per 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, but the molester isn't expressing love as determined by objective criteria. Feigned love is not love.

Perhaps its an issue of defining terms...

Subjective: Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. "His views are highly subjective."

Objective: Based on facts rather than feelings or opinions : not influenced by feelings.​

Love is clearly influenced by feelings, tastes or opinions.

Feigned love is influenced by feelings, tastes or opinions, too.
 

LoneStar

New member
DR, I can see your point. I remember one of those ladies that were convicted of killing her kids saying that God told her to kill them. When we were discussing it at the time, someone made the comment that she should have known it wasn't God's voice because God would never tell someone to do such a horrid thing. We know from the bible that God did tell someone to kill their kid >>>> Abraham to kill Isaac. Also the story of God's King Solomon judging that a child should be cut in half to divide between two women. Would it be too far fetched to say that morality is more about the intent of the action rather than the action itself? That way it could be said that God is moral, even when his actions may seem immoral to us, because his intent was pure.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You equate two things that are not equivalent in the slightest. You're quite right that it would be unjust (i.e. immoral) for God to condemn (i.e. send to an eternal Hell) someone for actions that they did not choose but it is not immoral for God is physically kill a human being for whatever reason He chooses. We only have life because He gives it to us. Our every breath is a mercy of God's. Our physical lives comprise of only a tiny fraction of the time we will exist. It is eternity that counts.

At the second coming when believers are all changed in the blink of an eye, our physical lives will end very abruptly and without warning. You don't consider that snuffing out of our physical lives to be unjust, do you? It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. We are not entitled to our next breath in this life.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:first:
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
DR, I can see your point. I remember one of those ladies that were convicted of killing her kids saying that God told her to kill them. When we were discussing it at the time, someone made the comment that she should have known it wasn't God's voice because God would never tell someone to do such a horrid thing. We know from the bible that God did tell someone to kill their kid >>>> Abraham to kill Isaac. Also the story of God's King Solomon judging that a child should be cut in half to divide between two women. Would it be too far fetched to say that morality is more about the intent of the action rather than the action itself? That way it could be said that God is moral, even when his actions may seem immoral to us, because his intent was pure.

Great example and just shows the danger in either side of the Euthyphro dilemma.
I suggest that intent is indeed a factor in some circumstances. Our laws recognise that too. But what you are doing seems like trying to get together a list of rules that determine morality. Intent would be one of them, though it doesn't apply in all circumstances. It is regarded as childish to say 'But I didn't mean it!' Why? Because we know that children need to be taught that they are responsible for their actions regardless of whether they intend them. That in itself seems to result in a paradox.

One way to resolve this paradox might be just to be a little more nuanced about how we express this rule. We could for example say 'Children need to be taught that their actions have consequences regardless of intent not because their intent is of no influence but because they need to be careful not to cause harm to others or to the property of others by their actions.' This is slightly different in that it is phrased negatively: it is not the action that is culpable but the intent; however, an action that doesn't take into account the context in which that action is carried out, is culpable regardless of intent. Do you see the difference? This nuanced concept is teaching children that responsibility is imposed on you and you have to learn it - every action you do, you must do, regardless of intent, with due consideration to the safety of others, etc.

But what I am suggesting here is more of a principle to follow rather than a new or nuanced rule. Such a concept will not give any practical guidance to children in when their actions are to be avoided or when to carry them out. All it will do is impress on them (through appropriate punishment) that they need to think before they act.

And it doesn't seem to come closer to an answer to the question: is there a complete set of rules that we can use to determine morality?
 
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