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  • #16
    Originally posted by Psalmist View Post
    This is a part of the message for Sunday at the retirement and healthcare center where I'm the chaplain.

    This is serious instruction about forgiving and forgiveness, how serious is it. I take it very serious, since Jesus said it, I believe it is an absolute truth.

    What do you say?

    Mark 11:25-26
    "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

    Luke 6:36
    Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
    Why would your pattern for forgiving another come from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? It's not written to anyone in the dispensation of the grace of God. It is written TO the lost sheep of the house of Israel, to whom Jesus was sent while on earth (Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV).

    Our pattern for forgiving one another is that we should because God for Christ's sake hath forgiven us.

    Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

    And as to God not forgiving us our trespasses, just how many of your trespasses do you believe are not forgiven already (Colossians 2:13 KJV)?

    I'm surprised at the OP coming from you, Psalmist. I thought you knew better; especially considering you are a chaplain. You really need to get into Romans through Philemon and consider what Paul says (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV).
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
      no it isn't
      redemption is dismissing the debt
      when Jesus suffered and died
      we were redeemed
      but
      our sins were not forgiven
      and
      we were not saved
      to be saved we must repent our trespasses
      and
      forgive those who trespassed against us
      Originally posted by Psalmist View Post
      References.
      Biblical chapter and verse.
      Proof positive as to what you state.

      Forgive our trespasses,
      As we forgive those who trespass against us.
      just add a little common sense to the scripture in you opening post

      Originally posted by Psalmist View Post
      This is a part of the message for Sunday at the retirement and healthcare center where I'm the chaplain.

      This is serious instruction about forgiving and forgiveness, how serious is it. I take it very serious, since Jesus said it, I believe it is an absolute truth.

      What do you say?

      Mark 11:25-26
      "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

      Luke 6:36
      Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
      what did Jesus accomplish with his suffering and death on the cross
      if
      the Father will not forgive you
      if
      you do not forgive
      a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
        just add a little common sense to the scripture in you opening post
        You must think I'm really not very bright; I thought for sure your find Scriptural references that would open some discussion, well so much for that.

        I guess Martin Luther was wrong, they still have the Holy Bible chained to the pulpit.
        sigpic

        .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
        .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
        Psalm 25:1

        Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

        The best portion of a person’s life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Psalmist View Post
          You must think I'm really not very bright; I thought for sure your find Scriptural references that would open some discussion, well so much for that.

          I guess Martin Luther was wrong, they still have the Holy Bible chained to the pulpit.
          are you going to answer the question?

          what did Jesus accomplish with his suffering and death on the cross
          if
          the Father will not forgive you
          if
          you do not forgive
          a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
            great post/thread psalmist

            forgiving is as hard as loving
            but
            we must do it

            you are not loving
            if
            you are not forgiving
            this is my first response in this thread
            and
            all I did was disagree with what amr posted
            but
            amr had not responded

            why does anyone else need to?
            a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by heir View Post
              Why would your pattern for forgiving another come from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? It's not written to anyone in the dispensation of the grace of God. It is written TO the lost sheep of the house of Israel, to whom Jesus was sent while on earth (Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV).

              Our pattern for forgiving one another is that we should because God for Christ's sake hath forgiven us.

              Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

              And as to God not forgiving us our trespasses, just how many of your trespasses do you believe are not forgiven already (Colossians 2:13 KJV)?

              I'm surprised at the OP coming from you, Psalmist. I thought you knew better; especially considering you are a chaplain. You really need to get into Romans through Philemon and consider what Paul says (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV).
              The four Gospels bring the message of hope to a lost and dying world, to anyone who will listen. They exposed to the truth John 14:6, we always hope it will lead to Romans 10:9-10, 13, Saved!

              John 10:16
              "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."


              Acts 28:28-31
              28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!" 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves. 30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.
              sigpic

              .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
              .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
              Psalm 25:1

              Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

              The best portion of a person’s life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
                are you going to answer the question?

                what did Jesus accomplish with his suffering and death on the cross
                if
                the Father will not forgive you
                if
                you do not forgive
                Everybody knows that...
                Matthew 6:14-15
                14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

                Mark 11:25-26
                25 "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

                What did Jesus dying on the cross accomplish...

                Colossians 2:14
                "...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."


                Hebrews 9:22
                And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

                John 19:28-30
                28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

                Judging and forgiving...

                Luke 6:37
                "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

                Again your reference.
                Ephesians 4:32
                And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
                sigpic

                .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
                .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
                Psalm 25:1

                Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

                The best portion of a person’s life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Psalmist View Post
                  Everybody knows that...
                  Matthew 6:14-15
                  14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

                  Mark 11:25-26
                  25 "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

                  What did Jesus dying on the cross accomplish...

                  Colossians 2:14
                  "...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."


                  Hebrews 9:22
                  And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

                  John 19:28-30
                  28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

                  Judging and forgiving...

                  Luke 6:37
                  "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

                  Again your reference.
                  Ephesians 4:32
                  And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
                  so we agree
                  but
                  you know the scripture

                  nice going
                  a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
                    so we agree
                    but
                    you know the scripture

                    nice going
                    That should be every Christian's objective, memorization of the Scriptures.

                    2 Timothy 2:15
                    Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                    sigpic

                    .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
                    .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
                    Psalm 25:1

                    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

                    The best portion of a person’s life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Forgiving and Forgiveness

                      This is a precious thread and a necessary one, for "forgiveness" is so easily mis-understood. I used to think it meant that one must let the perpetrator off scot-free and that it was wrong to be "aware" of the pain that one might have after being victimized. Therefore the one doing the "forgiving" was further "victimized" because it wasn't ok to process and seek help to deal with trauma or any number of abuses that one might have experienced.

                      God's inexplicable grace is necessary and His timing, so that He can work in the heart and mind of the one "wronged" as HE gives the power (through Him) to genuinely forgive.

                      Traumatized victims can only do this by God's inexplicable power and grace. Otherwise they are further victimized and traumatized because they are blamed even moreso, for "not forgiving" "on demand".

                      Through God's inexplicable grace and His perfect timing i have been able to forgive my psychotic and violent alcoholic father and my mom, who hurt me in numerous and damaging ways.

                      What i keep in mind (but was oblivious to previously) is that there is a "bigger" picture here. The culprit is the one behind the perpetrator, and that is the "enemy". It ties into spiritual warfare.

                      Woundings from trauma and pain can result in hatred. It just can. The one hating after being traumatized and wounded needs God's arms and healing, not condemnation.

                      God's balance and timing in all of this is exquiste. It is HE Who raises beauty from ashes. And He does this in His own, inexplicable and perfect timing.

                      How glorious is THAT?

                      Thank you kindly.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                        Let's really think about this.

                        Your Father in heaven does not forgive unless you first do it to others.
                        Or in other words, if you don't do it first, God won't do it for you.
                        It's a tit-for-tat arrangement.

                        But then we have:
                        Luke 23 KJV
                        (34) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

                        If Mark 11:25-26 is a blanket rule (without exception) to all for all time, the question naturally arises ....... if Jesus only did His Father's will of not forgiving any unless they first forgave others, then why would Jesus ask the Father to forgo that tit-for-tat conditional rule and forgive these folks before they had forgiven all others?
                        We receive mercy every second we are alive. We receive reconciliation by even more mercy of the Cross. Christianity is not about a one time event of repentance... It is a lifetime of following Jesus... Of repenting, of surrendering to the Holy Spirit and His transforming power in us, in our hearts and our minds.
                        "And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. This comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18

                        After following Jesus for many years I was severely wronged. I refused to forgive... I was full of hate... The fruit of the Spirit was gone. It was only with His continued conviction and consequence of my sin... A personal ride though Hell... Did I relent and repent and find Him again. Say what you will, but I know I was not safe living in rejection of God.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by brinny View Post
                          Forgiving and Forgiveness

                          This is a precious thread and a necessary one, for "forgiveness" is so easily mis-understood. I used to think it meant that one must let the perpetrator off scot-free and that it was wrong to be "aware" of the pain that one might have after being victimized. Therefore the one doing the "forgiving" was further "victimized" because it wasn't ok to process and seek help to deal with trauma or any number of abuses that one might have experienced.

                          God's inexplicable grace is necessary and His timing, so that He can work in the heart and mind of the one "wronged" as HE gives the power (through Him) to genuinely forgive.

                          Traumatized victims can only do this by God's inexplicable power and grace. Otherwise they are further victimized and traumatized because they are blamed even more so, for "not forgiving" "on demand".

                          Through God's inexplicable grace and His perfect timing i have been able to forgive my psychotic and violent alcoholic father and my mom, who hurt me in numerous and damaging ways.


                          What i keep in mind (but was oblivious to previously) is that there is a "bigger" picture here. The culprit is the one behind the perpetrator, and that is the "enemy". It ties into spiritual warfare.

                          Woundings from trauma and pain can result in hatred. It just can. The one hating after being traumatized and wounded needs God's arms and healing, not condemnation.

                          God's balance and timing in all of this is exquisite. It is HE Who raises beauty from ashes. And He does this in His own, inexplicable and perfect timing.

                          How glorious is THAT?

                          Thank you kindly.

                          Forgiving and Forgiveness -- Is a real healing experience. A great release for soul and spirit of both parties. Both, the forgiving and forgiven are equally blessed in the forgiveness and the forgiving one to other, as long as it is done in the love, truth, for real, anything other is just an act.

                          As for God's balance and timing it is perfect and right. When we know of wrong and do nothing at that time we leave it with the Lord; then when the time comes to deal with it, that time is right.

                          The person wronged forgives immediately, and what marvelous release and joy there is; the other person that was in the wrong was forgiven sometime later, there was no hostility, just "you are forgiven" another instance of sweet release and joy for both persons. We can really be surprised by what power the Lord gives to help in forgiving and forgiveness by the Holy Spirit.

                          Believe me it's a fact, because I know real forgiving and forgiveness.
                          sigpic

                          .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
                          .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
                          Psalm 25:1

                          Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

                          The best portion of a person’s life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Forgiving and Forgiveness

                            Originally posted by Psalmist View Post

                            Forgiving and Forgiveness -- Is a real healing experience. A great release for soul and spirit of both parties. Both, the forgiving and forgiven are equally blessed in the forgiveness and the forgiving one to other, as long as it is done in the love, truth, for real, anything other is just an act.

                            As for God's balance and timing it is perfect and right. When we know of wrong and do nothing at that time we leave it with the Lord; then when the time comes to deal with it, that time is right.

                            The person wronged forgives immediately, and what marvelous release and joy there is; the other person that was in the wrong was forgiven sometime later, there was no hostility, just "you are forgiven" another instance of sweet release and joy for both persons. We can really be surprised by what power the Lord gives to help in forgiving and forgiveness by the Holy Spirit.

                            Believe me it's a fact, because I know real forgiving and forgiveness.
                            Amen about:

                            We can really be surprised by what power the Lord gives to help in forgiving and forgiveness by the Holy Spirit.
                            It would have been impossible for me to forgive my mom and father in my own power, and i was not inclined to, and couldn't have cared less if i did not forgive either one. I hated and despised BOTH of them. HOWEVER, God's Holy Spirit did this inexplicable thing:

                            "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." ~(Romans 5;5)

                            What i realized later is that God was breaking the chains and generations of hatred and the enemy's "stranglehold" on my family, by working in my heart as He enabled me to do something i NEVER EVER intended to do. And that is to forgive my father and my mother.

                            Forgiveness is a weapon of sorts that disarms the enemy (Satan and his minions). He has no defense against it.

                            In essence God used "forgiveness" to break the curse that was surely on my family for generations.

                            Thank you kindly.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Psalmist View Post

                              Mark 11:25-26
                              "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."
                              Does that mean that if a believer cannot force himself to forgive someone then he will lose his salvation?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                                Does that mean that if a believer cannot force himself to forgive someone then he will lose his salvation?
                                Great question, I need to prayerfully study it. I believe were not left without answers, sometimes it is like digging for treasure, and as you dig for treasure you find other treasures of truth.

                                I'll be back.
                                sigpic

                                .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
                                .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
                                Psalm 25:1

                                Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

                                The best portion of a person’s life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

                                Comment

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