ECT Nang's Boastful Lie
- Thread starter Doom
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musterion
Well-known member
heir
TOL Subscriber
Is it any wonder she doesn't believe any "MADist", "ungodly Gnostic", "mystics" are saved?
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
What is the MAD position on works of faith?
They're not the basis of salvation whatsoever, but it appears MADs think behavior is so irrelevant that one can spend a lifetime abusing grace just to flaunt (alleged) faith, while never exhibiting the character of Christ by any works of His faith.
What is the MAD position on the book of James, for instance. Works aren't salvific, but inevitably there will be works from faith that is not dead.
It appears to be just one giant semantics issue, with MADs so deemphasizing works and demonstrating behavior that would cause anyone to take a step back if those things are the result of living faith.
Other than meshak and a few others, I don't see any non-MADs (including Nang) who emphasize works as salvific whatsoever. I see others being appalled at intentional and shock-value in-your-face behavior that isn't relative to anything Paul exhorted for those who believe his Gospel of faith and grace.
Salavation is of faith that it might be by grace (Rom 4). We're saved by grace through faith, not of works (Eph 2). Nobody besides meshak and God's Truth are promoting anything else that I've seen.
Grace and faith are not a license to sin (sin being a self-determined standard of conduct rather than God's conduct). We're dead to sin. We're a new creation IN Christ. There's no sin imputed where there is no law, and the law ceased in Christ.
Believers are to discern ALL things (1Cor 2). We're to judge righteous judgment (John 7). We're to judge ourselves that we be not judged (Matt 7; Luke 6).
None of us have any inherent righteousness, but all Believers are imputed righteousness. We're the righteousness of God IN Christ. (But, of course, one has to actually be IN Christ, and that's more than just a statement of assent.)
But the very meaning of righeousness is the standard of conduct. Our imputed righteousness can't help but be demonstrated in conduct. Rather than our conduct not mattering and we can do whatever, we've been empowered to live by the faith OF the Son of God. We live and move and have our being IN Christ. That would mean we couldn't constrain or contain that righteousness without it becoming our conduct as behavior.
The Romanization of the Church jacked that all up and gave us a works soteriology. Salvation is not based on works. The Reformation attempted to correct that by emphasizing salvation by grace and faith alone, though it just became a mantra with the emphasis still being on works in some manner.
But there is no righteousness if there is no conduct. That's not to say works is the means of salvation, but the inevitable expression of it. Conduct will follow the source of righteousness, because the very definition of righteousness is "standard of conduct".
When someone exhibits their own standard of conduct, it's self-righteousness. It's their own standard of conduct instead of God's standard. The faith that gives us access to the grace wherein we stand (Rom 5) can't help but be demonstrated outwardly in conduct. That's righteousness. Conduct will have a source, and the source is the standard. It will be our own or God's.
What I see in myself is the inability to EVER bring forth the standard of God's conduct. But that's my old man. My outer man. The inner man is renewed day by day, and I'm not just a sinner saved by grace, I'm a new creature. Behold all things have become new.
The life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith OF the Son of God. Now I live by His faith, not my own. So there's no room for my standard of conduct to present itself. I make no provision for the flesh. I keep under my body. I let not sin reign in my mortal flesh.
But that's all from resting in Christ's finished work, having ceased from my own works. For me to commit sin (bring forth my own standard of conduct from my old man) is to commit lawlessness. So having received Him, He gave me the power to become the son of God. I exercise that power as the works of faith.
This fulfills James without works as salvation. Works are the inevitable result of faith that gives us access to God's grace that moves upon our hearts to exhibit conduct that is according to His standard rather than our own. We don't have any righteousness of our own, but His has been imputed to us. It's been imputed to us as the standard for our conduct, not for us to make conduct irrelevant and live according to whatever standard we adopt for ourselves; which is sin.
Would one of the MADers please address this rationally and reasonably as valid subject matter without all the antics?
They're not the basis of salvation whatsoever, but it appears MADs think behavior is so irrelevant that one can spend a lifetime abusing grace just to flaunt (alleged) faith, while never exhibiting the character of Christ by any works of His faith.
What is the MAD position on the book of James, for instance. Works aren't salvific, but inevitably there will be works from faith that is not dead.
It appears to be just one giant semantics issue, with MADs so deemphasizing works and demonstrating behavior that would cause anyone to take a step back if those things are the result of living faith.
Other than meshak and a few others, I don't see any non-MADs (including Nang) who emphasize works as salvific whatsoever. I see others being appalled at intentional and shock-value in-your-face behavior that isn't relative to anything Paul exhorted for those who believe his Gospel of faith and grace.
Salavation is of faith that it might be by grace (Rom 4). We're saved by grace through faith, not of works (Eph 2). Nobody besides meshak and God's Truth are promoting anything else that I've seen.
Grace and faith are not a license to sin (sin being a self-determined standard of conduct rather than God's conduct). We're dead to sin. We're a new creation IN Christ. There's no sin imputed where there is no law, and the law ceased in Christ.
Believers are to discern ALL things (1Cor 2). We're to judge righteous judgment (John 7). We're to judge ourselves that we be not judged (Matt 7; Luke 6).
None of us have any inherent righteousness, but all Believers are imputed righteousness. We're the righteousness of God IN Christ. (But, of course, one has to actually be IN Christ, and that's more than just a statement of assent.)
But the very meaning of righeousness is the standard of conduct. Our imputed righteousness can't help but be demonstrated in conduct. Rather than our conduct not mattering and we can do whatever, we've been empowered to live by the faith OF the Son of God. We live and move and have our being IN Christ. That would mean we couldn't constrain or contain that righteousness without it becoming our conduct as behavior.
The Romanization of the Church jacked that all up and gave us a works soteriology. Salvation is not based on works. The Reformation attempted to correct that by emphasizing salvation by grace and faith alone, though it just became a mantra with the emphasis still being on works in some manner.
But there is no righteousness if there is no conduct. That's not to say works is the means of salvation, but the inevitable expression of it. Conduct will follow the source of righteousness, because the very definition of righteousness is "standard of conduct".
When someone exhibits their own standard of conduct, it's self-righteousness. It's their own standard of conduct instead of God's standard. The faith that gives us access to the grace wherein we stand (Rom 5) can't help but be demonstrated outwardly in conduct. That's righteousness. Conduct will have a source, and the source is the standard. It will be our own or God's.
What I see in myself is the inability to EVER bring forth the standard of God's conduct. But that's my old man. My outer man. The inner man is renewed day by day, and I'm not just a sinner saved by grace, I'm a new creature. Behold all things have become new.
The life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith OF the Son of God. Now I live by His faith, not my own. So there's no room for my standard of conduct to present itself. I make no provision for the flesh. I keep under my body. I let not sin reign in my mortal flesh.
But that's all from resting in Christ's finished work, having ceased from my own works. For me to commit sin (bring forth my own standard of conduct from my old man) is to commit lawlessness. So having received Him, He gave me the power to become the son of God. I exercise that power as the works of faith.
This fulfills James without works as salvation. Works are the inevitable result of faith that gives us access to God's grace that moves upon our hearts to exhibit conduct that is according to His standard rather than our own. We don't have any righteousness of our own, but His has been imputed to us. It's been imputed to us as the standard for our conduct, not for us to make conduct irrelevant and live according to whatever standard we adopt for ourselves; which is sin.
Would one of the MADers please address this rationally and reasonably as valid subject matter without all the antics?
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I know the context of what she means, and it would parallel my post above.
All she's calling attention to is the definition for righteousness, which is God's standard of conduct.
I wouldn't express it as she does, but she's not equating behavior with salvation. She's equating the vital demonstration OF salvific faith BY grace (God's divine nature influencing our own) AS righteousness (God's standard of conduct).
So I would disagree with the minutiae of her semantics, but I look to see exactly what she means by what she says, just as I do with MADs or anyone else. That's why I posted the above, graciously and with intentional humility and no hint of judgment of condemnation.
There is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8). All anyone (except meshak and God's Truth, and maybe a few others I'm not aware of) is saying is that faith without works is dead. Our conduct should be according to God's standard rather than our own, because that was imputed to us... God's standard of conduct.
I think everyone, including me, should be much more tight-lipped about comments regarding others' salvation when faced with different doctrinal viewpoints. That's why I'm "reaching out", in spite of all the antics. I'm looking past ANY conduct to recognize that NO conduct determines someone's salvation.
But to say that conduct isn't relative to salvation is to deny the entire book of James and the Gospel itself. We've been imputed God's standard of conduct so that we CAN demonstrate it through a living faith by grace.
The whole point of salvation isn't to get a bye on behavior, but to know that our inherent behavior can't ever be God's righteousness, so we need His righteousness to BE and then DO.
It's not an absence of doing, for that would be impossible. It's about being TO do. It's about our conduct being the righteousness of God rather than our own. And that's conduct, because the very definition righteousness is "standard of conduct".
No, behavior shouldn't be the judging point of salvation, but neither should imputed righteousness as salvation by faith and grace be an excuse to exhibit our own inherent unrighteousness in the old man that's supposed to crucified with Christ.
There's some sense of denial of Christ if we just live according to our own standard of conduct. That's not salvific, but affects our qualitative existence.
Man can't initiate, effect, or accomplish his own salvation, whether as an event or a process. Works have not ever, do not now, and will not ever save anyone. It's through faith by grace, and not one thing we do. But everything we do should be a demonstation of that living faith.
I don't really see any difference in how MADs respond about others' behavior and how others respond to MADs behavior. It seems to be a perspective difference, with differing semantics.
We are empowered to DO from our BEING in Christ. Resting.
Thanks, doom. Feel free to answer individual points rather than the whole posts at once.
I only have one quick comment that doom is going to get to anyway. James said the opposite. Works are not evidence of faith.
Was not Abraham made righteous when he offered up his son?
It was the act. And yes, this goes against what Paul said.
False Prophet
New member
Every fpzete which confesses not that Jesus is come in the flesh is not of God, and this that fpezete of antichrist. 1 John 4 Coverdale Bible
Does he confess that Jesus did not come in the flesh? Than he is not of God!
Does he confess that Jesus did not come in the flesh? Than he is not of God!
Christianity is not just one liner, friend.
Doom
New member
Try to stay on topic.
Nang, (a woman who posts on this site) intentionally or unintentionally stated that the evidence of someone being saved is that they act as holy as Jesus.
According to her, if someone professes to be saved and does not act as holy as Jesus, they prove themselves to not be saved.
For her to affirm her own salvation, she either believes that the acts of Jesus are less than perfect, or that Jesus is perfect, and that she acts as perfect as Jesus.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
It was the heart producing the act, wouldn't you more accurately say?
Faith is a substance, so it was the employment of that substance IN/AS action rather than the action itself.
Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness. That was before he offered up his son.
I know you guys like to reject language for answers, but his is another such example.
In James 2:21, he said, "Was not Abraham our father justified (dikaioo) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter?"
Verbs which end in -oo mean to bring out that which a person is or that which is desired. They do not have reference to the mode in which the action takes place. In the case of dikaioo, it means either to bring out the fact that he is just or to make him just without necessarily referring to how he is made just.
This verse simply means Abraham was already imputed righteousness (dikaiosune), and this action brought out that fact of who he was.
Righteousness is the Believer's fulfillment of the claims of God's expected behavior and conformity to His standard of conduct according to the imputation by faith.
Abraham believed God's standard of conduct would be his own, so God imputed to him the ability to "hit the mark" (righteousness) rather than "miss the mark" (sin).
James is merely stating that the evidence and proof of Abraham's intangible substance of faith was the demonstration of offering his son. James in no way is indicating that the act was the justification, but that the act brought out the fact OF his faith-imputed righteousness.
One would have to ignore the Greek terms and definitions to say that James was saying it was righteousness by works. That's the problem with the Catholics. They don't understand James is reiterating the same thing Paul says.
Works can only demonstrate faith in a visible and tangible outward manner as bringing forth that which a person IS. One would have to BE righteous for works to demonstrate any such thing. That's why dead works are irrelevant. Only the works from a living faith matter. That which is not of faith is sin.
Abraham was already imputed righteousness because of his faith. The "justified" is just him bringing forth what he IS so there's no doubt to others by the example.
Salvation has NEVER been by works. And the law was a Covenant, not legislation. It was merely the means of demonstrating faith by guarding the righteousness of God in the Decalogue. The Pharisees corrupted the Covenant into legislation.
No. Abraham did not want to sacrificed his son to God. But he did not withhold his son from him. That was the whole point. He did what he did not want to do.
Was not Abraham justified when he offered up his son Isaac
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Read the above. Justified is dikaioo. The verb suffix -oo never indicates the mode of action taking place. Justified means he brought forth him being righteous into tangible action. It's not the action itself.
English can't convey those subtleties, so it leads to many misunderstandings as concepts of the mind (noema), which are Satan's devices that we're to not be ignorant of.
Justified was not the action that occurred when Abraham offered his son. Justified was the bringing forth that which Abraham was INTO action. BEING to DO. The action meant nothing if there was no faith, and that's why nobody is saved by works.
Faith changes who we ARE. And that BEING then DOES. No works themselves can accomplish anything whatsoever except an exertion of effort and energy, which is not resting. We have ceased from our own works and entered into His rest by faith.
And the live we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith OF the Son of God. Gal 2:20
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Right. He didn't set his own standard of conduct (sin), he adhered to God's standard of conduct for him (righteousness). That's faith. By imputation.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
As I've said, I think you filter Nang's comments through a perspective that is just differing semantics for different emphases.
Nang doesn't believe works are salvific. There are only a one-hand count of non-Catholic TOL members who would espouse a works-based salvation, and they're in error.
Our righteousness is imputed. But righteousness, by definition, is standard of conduct. And it also demands recognizing the claims of that standard AS conduct.
It's not OUR conduct, it's the faith that has changed our being so that we can exhibit the claims of God's standards on our lives.
Righteousness includes conduct. If it doesn't, it's not righteousness, and that demonstrates faith isn't present.
Faith causes us to BE in Christ. It's that being that is brought forth in conduct as part of imputed righteousness.
Doom
New member
I'll get to your comments later, mainly because it will take a great deal of time to unravel your repeated statements that are a polar opposite of what I believe and know the Bible to teach.
You believe: Righteousness is by grace through faith and includes conduct.
I believe: Righteousness is by grace through faith and excludes conduct.
You believe: Righteousness is by grace through faith and includes conduct.
I believe: Righteousness is by grace through faith and excludes conduct.
Livelystone
New member
So was the prodigal son "not saved" during the time he was living contrary to what would have been his fathers way of life, did he loose his "sonship" only to get it back when he repented?
The prodigal son was never not a son anymore than Christ did not die for the sins of the whole world rather than just those who confess His Name in this life.
All people fall short of the glory of God, and it is only God within someone who can cause said person to live a holy life......... not because the person is "acting like Jesus.' but instead it is Christ in them doing exactly what Christ would do AKA living a Holy Life on earth today just as He did 2000 years ago.
A person cannot act like Christ, only Christ can live the Christ life.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I believe the righteousness of God is by faith of Jesus Christ; that it's unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). Salvation is not by anything that we have done (Titus 3:5 KJV).
Doom
New member
Those who are in Christ walk by grace through faith, just as they received Him. Col 2:6