Problems with the Trinity.

[Hilltrot]

Show me.
ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος και τὸ ῞Αγιον Πνεύμα, καὶ οὗτοι οι τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι·

That is not the original scripture. You need to use a critical text. The way this passage was created is actually quite interesting. I am quite surprised you haven't heard of the Johannine comma.

You can read about it here - https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

You can also read about the other passage as well if you want.

 

[Hilltrot]

I see no difference.

Excellent. Then you agree with me on how they should read. Lon disagrees.

 

[God's Truth]

Excellent. Then you agree with me on how they should read. Lon disagrees.

Okay that sounds good.
Lon is full of error with many false beliefs.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes people added and change the scripture into something else. The scripture itself is inspired. The additions and changes are clearly recognized and Biblical scholars agree. I am not discounting the scripture wholesale or picking and choosing only the passages I like. However, passages have different interpretations and well as different translations. The interpretation and translation is best done in the context of of the rest of the passage, Bible, and culture of the time.

I think you are wrong about additions and changes to the Bible. You cause suspicion and distrust. I read many different translations and don't get different doctrines from one translations to another.

By the way, you know that Calvinism is false, but you don't know that your Bible of choice was translated by only Calvinists? That is enough to make me not choose that translation.

 

[God's Truth]

Is this oneness theology? Or your own personal theology?

It is an interesting idea but one which increases the problems and questions more than it solves in my opinion.

No, it isn't oneness.

I can prove my beliefs from the Bible.

Now you prove it that it increases problems. Your opinion is worthless if that is all you got.

How does one ever get that it is too confusing to understand that the Almighty God the Father remained in heaven and also put His Spirit in the baby in the womb of Mary?

 

[clefty]

That is not the original scripture. You need to use a critical text. The way this passage was created is actually quite interesting. I am quite surprised you haven't heard of the Johannine comma.

You can read about it here - https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

You can also read about the other passage as well if you want.

But he does have two...TWO degrees...

I repeated myself...once for each degree he has...

He missed having three by one...but maybe that too is three...another mystery?

 

[Hilltrot]

No, it isn't oneness.

I can prove my beliefs from the Bible.

Now you prove it that it increases problems. Your opinion is worthless if that is all you got.

If it isn't oneness, I don't know what your beliefs are, so I can't have a valid position.

 

[God's Truth]

If it isn't oneness, I don't know what your beliefs are, so I can't have a valid position.

I explained my beliefs. God the Father came as a son of man in the flesh.

I never studied modalism much, just briefly when I was said to have the same beliefs as those in the Oneness denomination. I am going by the scriptures in the Holy Bible. I think though that the difference between my beliefs and modalism is that I believe the three exist at the same time. The Oneness denomination explains modalism by saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not exist simultaneously, but rather consecutively.
I do not believe like that. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit exist simultaneously.

 

[Hilltrot]

By the way, you know that Calvinism is false, but you don't know that your Bible of choice was translated by only Calvinists?

Most Bibles are translated by or by those who are influenced by Calvinists. In general, I do not focus on a single verse and do not read verse by verse. I've believed since I was young that if I based my theology on a single verse, I am on shaky ground. This is why I commonly said Calvinists have a pamphlet and not a Bible. They used a selection of disjointed verses which would barely fill a pamphlet. I will reread the Bible before I make my final conclusion.

 

[Lon]

That is not the original scripture. You need to use a critical text. The way this passage was created is actually quite interesting. I am quite surprised you haven't heard of the Johannine comma.

You can read about it here - https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

You can also read about the other passage as well if you want.

I have, and I clearly know Greek. Why would you posture otherwise? Hopeful/wishful? What were you hoping for? That I was literally caught surprised? :think:

All I asked was for you to read it back to me. You said 'agree.' All I was interested in was Eis (one).

Next? John 1:1,3,14,20:28 Even with pleading of the comma, it does not erase the majority of scriptures in their clarity.


In the triune thread, there are many verses that simply cannot be washed away. If you leave Christendom, this body of Christ, you will do so embittered. We have many embittered members on TOL because they aren't tossed off the board like some other boards. They do not, however, claim us in any kind of fellowship and they have been pretty bitter, many carnal and fleshly (as is readily seen in the Triune thread). I cannot argue you back from the brink. If that thread doesn't show you, if the Spirit doesn't drive you, there is naught much left, not even any planting or watering left. I can pray God's Spirit guides you into all truth and that's about it. -Lon

 

[clefty]

Your short venture through those who posture over this is not academically accepted and is ad hoc.

See here and here IF you are open to being corrected. If not, there is no point to discussion.

Corrected by two TWO links you offer? one of which is challenged within its own comment section...and if not corrected by these two TWO links...no point to discussion?

Oh my...a topic centuries old and discussed...debated...fought over...people killed...and killing for...is settled by two TWO links you provide...only one of them allowing for comments...

CHRISTENDOM remains divided over this and you want two TWO links you provide to correct and end the discussion...LOL

These links BTW “establishing“ the divinity of Yahushua...or more honestly asserting “early fathers assert” the divinity of One born in the flesh...still only makes it only two TWO...and not three your trinity...

 

[Hilltrot]

I explained my beliefs. God the Father came as a son of man in the flesh.

I don't believe that.

Is there nothing more to it than that? Did you want me to tell you what might be problematic with that?

 

[God's Truth]

Most Bibles are translated by or by those who are influenced by Calvinists. In general, I do not focus on a single verse and do not read verse by verse. I've believed since I was young that if I based my theology on a single verse, I am on shaky ground. This is why I commonly said Calvinists have a pamphlet and not a Bible. They used a selection of disjointed verses which would barely fill a pamphlet. I will reread the Bible before I make my final conclusion.

No, not all Bible translations are only translated by Calvinists, such as the ESV Bible.

The ESV Bible might be fine in its translation that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about just knowing it is a Bible put together by only Calvinists. I am very sensitive to the spirit influence of people in falseness. It is why I won't study anymore from the Catholic translations. Again, I'm not saying the translations make for different doctrines, because they don't, I just don't like the spiritual feel of the Bibles brought together by some denominations and not others.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't believe that.

Is there nothing more to it than that? Did you want me to tell you what might be problematic with that?

You are the one who says your mind isn't made up to what you believe.

So don't fault me for trying to help you.

If you don't believe Jesus is God, then you have just as bad a problem as the trinitarians, and maybe even worse.

 

[Lon]

I don't believe that.

Is there nothing more to it than that? Did you want me to tell you what might be problematic with that?

She's a modalist. I'm much more patient with modalist than arians. There is no support for two gods. Arians ultimately 'are gods' and have 'gods' (polytheism despite their attempt).

 

[Hilltrot]

But he does have two...TWO degrees...

I repeated myself...once for each degree he has...

He missed having three by one...but maybe that too is three...another mystery?

Are you mentioning?

1 John 5:6 ESV
This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Does this passage say Jesus is God? Does it say that the spirit is God? Does it say that Jesus was co-eternal with the spirit? Does it say that Jesus and the spirit have equal glory?

Does it really have two degrees or does it simply mention 2 degrees.

 

[Hilltrot]

You are the one who says your mind isn't made up to what you believe.

So don't fault me for trying to help you.

If you don't believe Jesus is God, then you have just as bad a problem as the trinitarians, and maybe even worse.

I do need to reread the Bible before I make a final choice and I know most disagree with what I have to say. I've made it abundantly clear that although I won't likely face execution for announcing this publicly there are definitely ramifications for doing so. I do take this seriously.

 

[Idolater]

...You'all are welcome to convince me otherwise but I'm pretty close to completely renouncing the Trinity.

Catholic translation (NABRE) but you are welcome to inspect all the other kinds of translations of Job 9:8

Job 9:
8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.

 

[Lon]

Are you mentioning?

1 John 5:6 ESV
This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Does this passage say Jesus is God? Does it say that the spirit is God? Does it say that Jesus was co-eternal with the spirit? Does it say that Jesus and the spirit have equal glory?

Does it really have two degrees or does it simply mention 2 degrees.

Well, you missed his point. It was a dig on me (remember me talking about bitterness and animosity for those in the church as a sign of a huge problem?). Clefty is on my ignore list, so wasted a moment to show you clearly who he is and what's inside his heart (and apparently a need/desire to try and discredit). Why? Who knows, but not the godly fruit one looks for in these discussions. Bitterness is its own fruit. It still hurts my soul to see people (Clefty in this post) championing anybody but Christ in their lives and theology. Following me around to be mean? To try and be a general pain? It makes absolutely no holy or godly sense.

We have many embittered members on TOL because they aren't tossed off the board like some other boards. They do not, however, claim us in any kind of fellowship and they have been pretty bitter, many carnal and fleshly . -Lon

Clefty wasn't talking about the scriptures. He used this time, unfortunately, for talking about his envy or hatred or whatever of me. Sadly, not worth your time. I'm certainly not worthy of such effort so cannot fathom the need or desire in him to do this :idunno:

 

[God's Truth]

I do need to reread the Bible before I make a final choice and I know most disagree with what I have to say. I've made it abundantly clear that although I won't likely face execution for announcing this publicly there are definitely ramifications for doing so. I do take this seriously.

Well then maybe you should consider what I say too and not just trinitarians and those who say Jesus is not God.