Death and How to Comfort the Family-Part 2

[God's Truth]

Is it possibly, even remotely possible, that you might not be as clear ("plain") as you think your are? I.e., if I got the wrong impression of what you are "really" saying, then others might also get the wrong impression? And if you aren't as clear as you think you are, is it possible that scripture isn't as clear in all cases as what you think it is??

You did wrong, but want to make it my fault.

Don't change what I say, and if it is hard for you to understand, then ask me to explain more. Don't just change what I say.

Thus, when you pick out a scripture and say that it "plainly says", you are trying to establish your claim based on your own authority, but making it sound like it comes form scripture.

That is what I am convinced that your false teachers did when you were taught by them. I'm trying to show you how to read it like you never were taught anything about it. Read it exactly how it is written. I have been taught by many different teachers, so really just trying to help you.

This is an interesting side conversation, but why do you think it is relevant? Are you saying Jesus has to be taught in an area for Him to have "filled" that area? Was the Son of God "taught" in heaven before He was sent from God? Is He being "taught" there now? If not, then why is it relevant?

I can't tell you how glad I am that you said you find that interesting.
It is relevant because it proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies. It gives confidence and knowledge to those who comfort others whose loved ones passed away.
Jesus has to be taught in an area to have filled that area, because the Bible plainly says that Jesus filled the universe. The son of God was revealed when he came to earth. Those who have died before Jesus got to hear the gospel and the chance to live according to it too.

 

[Derf]

You did wrong, but want to make it my fault.

Don't change what I say, and if it is hard for you to understand, then ask me to explain more. Don't just change what I say.


That is what I am convinced that your false teachers did when you were taught by them. I'm trying to show you how to read it like you never were taught anything about it. Read it exactly how it is written. I have been taught by many different teachers, so really just trying to help you.

Not changing, just pointing out how people can interpret your words differently from you intend, and thus how you might also be able to misinterpret something as well. Are you saying you never misinterpret anything?

I can't tell you how glad I am that you said you find that interesting.
It is relevant because it proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies. It gives confidence and knowledge to those who comfort others whose loved ones passed away.
Jesus has to be taught in an area to have filled that area, because the Bible plainly says that Jesus filled the universe. The son of God was revealed when he came to earth. Those who have died before Jesus got to hear the gospel and the chance to live according to it too.

I'm not convinced that's what it means. What does it mean to you that Jesus filled the universe? If the spirits live on after the death of our bodies, how does that help Jesus to fill the universe??

 

[Lon]

Thanks Lon.
Do you think the idea of clothed in His righteousness is tied to Paul's thoughts that we long to be clothed as here:

[2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[2Co 5:6 KJV] Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[2Co 5:8 KJV] We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[2Co 5:10 KJV] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Yes

I'm not convinced that's what it means. What does it mean to you that Jesus filled the universe? If the spirits live on after the death of our bodies, how does that help Jesus to fill the universe??

Especially when Spirit/spirit isn't physical.

 

[God's Truth]

Not changing, just pointing out how people can interpret your words differently from you intend, and thus how you might also be able to misinterpret something as well. Are you saying you never misinterpret anything?

There you go again, saying things I didn't say. See, you resist just going by what is said. You are the epitome of an example. lol

I'm not convinced that's what it means. What does it mean to you that Jesus filled the universe? If the spirits live on after the death of our bodies, how does that help Jesus to fill the universe??

The scripture says he was on earth while alive preaching the gospel, then went to prison/Hell, and then ascended to the highest place. The scriptures say that means he filled the whole universe.

 

[Derf]

There you go again, saying things I didn't say. See, you resist just going by what is said. You are the epitome of an example. lol

I'll let that be the last word on that--lol

The scripture says he was on earth while alive preaching the gospel, then went to prison/Hell, and then ascended to the highest place. The scriptures say that means he filled the whole universe.

See, no body-less spirits needed .

 

[God's Truth]

I'll let that be the last word on that--lol

See, no body-less spirits needed .

The scriptures say he died and went to prison/Hell and preached to the spirits of those who died even long ago.

The scriptures also say that heaven is where the spirits are now of men whose faith in Jesus' blood made them perfect.

Of course there are body-less spirits.

The only way a human can go to heaven is in their spirit and no physical human body allowed.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Derf]

The scriptures say he died and went to prison/Hell and preached to the spirits of those who died even long ago.

The scriptures also say that heaven is where the spirits are now of men whose faith in Jesus' blood made them perfect.

Of course there are body-less spirits.

The only way a human can go to heaven is in their spirit and no physical human body allowed.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

You provided scriptures that I responded to, saying they don't necessarily prove your point. To then go back to repeating the same thing with no new information isn't really doing justice to the discussion.

And I could use Matt 23:13 back at you. It means nothing in this context, as I'm not preventing anyone from entering the kingdom of heaven. Surely you don't think Jesus was saying the pharisees needed to either die, to enter the kingdom themselves, or arrange for other people to die, to help those others to enter the kingdom. No, but Jesus was referring to entering the kingdom of heaven while people were still alive..

 

[God's Truth]

You provided scriptures that I responded to, saying they don't necessarily prove your point.

Of course they prove what I say, because I got it from the scriptures.

To then go back to repeating the same thing with no new information isn't really doing justice to the discussion.

Your denial isn't a defense. You said false things about the scriptures and about what I said. You need correction.

And I could use Matt 23:13 back at you. It means nothing in this context, as I'm not preventing anyone from entering the kingdom of heaven. Surely you don't think Jesus was saying the pharisees needed to either die, to enter the kingdom themselves, or arrange for other people to die, to help those others to enter the kingdom. No, but Jesus was referring to entering the kingdom of heaven while people were still alive..

How do you think we enter the kingdom if not spiritually?

 

[Gary K]

There you go again, saying things I didn't say. See, you resist just going by what is said. You are the epitome of an example. lol



The scripture says he was on earth while alive preaching the gospel, then went to prison/Hell, and then ascended to the highest place. The scriptures say that means he filled the whole universe.

I will just address this one part of your post.

If Jesus returned to just being a spiritual being after He rose from the dead why did He send the Comforter? And, why did Jesus use the language He used in reference to the Comforter, i.e. the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was going back to being omnipresent why didn't He just say that I will ask the Father if I can come back as the Comforter? Instead He used language that refers directly to a third person. That is the grammar of the language he used.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[God's Truth]

I will just address this one part of your post.

If Jesus returned to just being a spiritual being after He rose from the dead why did He send the Comforter?

Jesus rose from the dead with his body.

And, why did Jesus use the language He used in reference to the Comforter, i.e. the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was going back to being omnipresent why didn't He just say that I will ask the Father if I can come back as the Comforter? Instead He used language that refers directly to a third person. That is the grammar of the language he used.

Jesus said he would send the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter because the Comforter had been living with them. Jesus is the one who had been living with them; AND, Jesus said he isn’t leaving them as orphans---only a mother or a father can keep a child from being an orphan. Jesus is the Father and the Comforter.

While Jesus was on earth during his ministry, the Holy Spirit was not given to all believers yet, not until Jesus died and was raised and returned to the Father, not until Pentecost could all believers receive the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


Jesus says to his Apostles that they know the Holy Spirit because he lives with them. JESUS WAS THE ONE LIVING WITH THEM. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

Instead of their thinking Jesus is coming to live with them in the flesh again, he says another, because he is not coming to them in the flesh, but in another way...just in the Spirit.

 

[Derf]

Of course they prove what I say, because I got it from the scriptures.

That's what Satan said to Jesus. With your logic, I guess Jesus should have bowed down to him.

How do you think we enter the kingdom if not spiritually?

Certainly spiritually. But that doesn't mean we have to be spirits to enter.

 

[God's Truth]

That's what Satan said to Jesus. With your logic, I guess Jesus should have bowed down to him.

That is not what Satan said to Jesus. You make up things about what the Bible says. Oh, wait, it is what Satan does. Funny how that works. You do and are exactly what you falsely accuse me of being. and doing.
You don't even believe we have spirits that live on after the death of the body. What are you, a JW? You are a wolf in sheep's clothing trying to devour me.

I speak of comfort and truth, and you attack and hate me for it.

Certainly spiritually. But that doesn't mean we have to be spirits to enter.

We have spirits and that is how we enter.

 

[Derf]

That is not what Satan said to Jesus. You make up things about what the Bible says. Oh, wait, it is what Satan does. Funny how that works. You do and are exactly what you falsely accuse me of being. and doing.

Sure he did--he quoted scripture to Jesus to prove his point:

[Mat 4:6 KJV] And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

If, as you say, just quoting scripture makes you the correct one, then Satan must have been correct.

You don't even believe we have spirits that live on after the death of the body. What are you, a JW? You are a wolf in sheep's clothing trying to devour me.

I speak of comfort and truth, and you attack and hate me for it.

No, I don't hate you. I just don't think you are correct. Are you saying that disagreeing with someone is the same as hating them?

But I appreciate you bringing us back to the OP topic--how is comfort to be delivered. I'm suggesting (not holding it as the only possible interpretation, but suggesting), that Paul gave us words of comfort in the case of someone who dies before the return of Christ. And as easy as it would have been to say, "your dead loved one is already with Jesus", he didn't say that. He said, "We who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep...Comfort one another with these words." It's as if the dead ones were NOT with Jesus, but they would get to Jesus before the live ones.

We have spirits and that is how we enter.

[Luk 17:20 KJV] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
[Luk 17:21 KJV] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[Mat 6:10 KJV] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

The kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, but not a kingdom of spirits. It's a kingdom that comes to earth, to men that are on the earth, that are physical, just as Jesus rose physically from the dead.

 

[Gary K]

Jesus rose from the dead with his body.



Jesus said he would send the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter because the Comforter had been living with them. Jesus is the one who had been living with them; AND, Jesus said he isn’t leaving them as orphans---only a mother or a father can keep a child from being an orphan. Jesus is the Father and the Comforter.

While Jesus was on earth during his ministry, the Holy Spirit was not given to all believers yet, not until Jesus died and was raised and returned to the Father, not until Pentecost could all believers receive the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


Jesus says to his Apostles that they know the Holy Spirit because he lives with them. JESUS WAS THE ONE LIVING WITH THEM. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

Instead of their thinking Jesus is coming to live with them in the flesh again, he says another, because he is not coming to them in the flesh, but in another way...just in the Spirit.

Shakes head in wonder.....

Jesus kept his humanity when He rose from the dead. That means He is no longer omnipresent. He sacrificed that part of Him to save us. It's a further demonstration of His love for us. He cannot be with each of us personally at all times. He has to accomplish that through the Comforter, i.e. the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says He's going to ask the Father to send another Comforter and one that would stay with us forever and live within us. Immediately after that statement He says He will come to us. Now why do we need another Comforter if Jesus is already going to be our Comforter? Your understanding of this passage of scripture is illogical and doesn't follow the scripture.

Jesus explains this passage more a little further on in his interview with the disciples.

[SIZE=+1]23[/SIZE] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
[SIZE=+1]24[/SIZE] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
[SIZE=+1]25[/SIZE] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
[SIZE=+1]26[/SIZE] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[SIZE=+1]27[/SIZE] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
[SIZE=+1]28[/SIZE] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
[SIZE=+1]29[/SIZE] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

The Holy Spirit comes to us in the NAME of Jesus. That's how Jesus can abide with each of us at all times and in all places. He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one, therefore when the Holy Spirit comes to us He reveals to us exactly the same love, compassion and truth that Jesus revealed, and that the Father reveals to us.

 

[God's Truth]

Sure he did--he quoted scripture to Jesus to prove his point:

You said Satan says he proves what he says with scripture. Satan never said that.
You are like Satan who changes what the scriptures say to your false beliefs.

[Mat 4:6 KJV] And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

If, as you say, just quoting scripture makes you the correct one, then Satan must have been correct.

Again, YOU said Satan said something and it is written in the Bible. No such thing does the Bible say Satan said.

No, I don't hate you.

You do hate me. What do you call comparing me to Satan? You just showed all what you are when you made such a false judgment on me.

I just don't think you are correct. Are you saying that disagreeing with someone is the same as hating them?

No, you saying the evil things you do about others who don’t agree with you is what shows you are evil.

You even made a thread about how believers comfort others and you try to destroy that comfort.

Something is deeply wrong with you, and I am just trying to help you.

[Luk 17:20 KJV] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
[Luk 17:21 KJV] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[Mat 6:10 KJV] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

The kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, but not a kingdom of spirits. It's a kingdom that comes to earth, to men that are on the earth, that are physical, just as Jesus rose physically from the dead.

You are using scripture like Satan; out of whack.

 

[God's Truth]

Shakes head in wonder.....

Jesus kept his humanity when He rose from the dead. That means He is no longer omnipresent. He sacrificed that part of Him to save us. It's a further demonstration of His love for us. He cannot be with each of us personally at all times. He has to accomplish that through the Comforter, i.e. the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says He's going to ask the Father to send another Comforter and one that would stay with us forever and live within us. Immediately after that statement He says He will come to us. Now why do we need another Comforter if Jesus is already going to be our Comforter? Your understanding of this passage of scripture is illogical and doesn't follow the scripture.

Jesus explains this passage more a little further on in his interview with the disciples.

The Holy Spirit comes to us in the NAME of Jesus. That's how Jesus can abide with each of us at all times and in all places. He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one, therefore when the Holy Spirit comes to us He reveals to us exactly the same love, compassion and truth that Jesus revealed, and that the Father reveals to us.

Talk about a head shake. You just went on and on with some made up story how Jesus didn't really mean it when he says he himself will live in us.

 

[Gary K]

Talk about a head shake. You just went on and on with some made up story how Jesus didn't really mean it when he says he himself will live in us.

If you took that out of what I said, you didn't understand what I said, or what Jesus said. Or that Jesus is still fully human and as such cannot be in more than one place at a time. He comes to us through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Why would the Holy Spirit be needed to teach us all things, and to recall to the minds of the disciples everything Jesus had said while here on earth, if Jesus Himself were to be with us in all places and at all times? Why would we need the Holy Spirit if Jesus is personally dwelling within us? You keep ignoring why Jesus would instruct us of our constant need of the Holy Spirit. Explain this from your point of view.

 

[God's Truth]

If you took that out of what I said, you didn't understand what I said, or what Jesus said. Or that Jesus is still fully human and as such cannot be in more than one place at a time. He comes to us through the agency of the Holy Spirit.




Why would the Holy Spirit be needed to teach us all things, and to recall to the minds of the disciples everything Jesus had said while here on earth, if Jesus Himself were to be with us in all places and at all times? Why would we need the Holy Spirit if Jesus is personally dwelling within us? You keep ignoring why Jesus would instruct us of our constant need of the Holy Spirit. Explain this from your point of view.

Jesus IS the Holy Spirit.

 

[Derf]

Jesus IS the Holy Spirit.

Maybe he will agree with you if you say that louder, and repeat it a bunch of times. And throw in more all-caps.

 

[God's Truth]

Maybe he will agree with you if you say that louder, and repeat it a bunch of times. And throw in more all-caps.

You have room to talk?

Only God can give understanding. Obviously, it isn't given to you for a reason.

He wasn't getting it that Jesus is the Holy Spirit and you are going to be bitter because I told him and capitalized 'is'?