ECT Our triune God

[Wile E. Coyote]

No my friend, it is you who needs to bone up on Jewish thought! Claiming equality with God is not the same as claiming to be God!

To claim to be equal with God was blasphemous to the Jew.(John 5:18). Therefore, to the Jew the claim to equality was the same as the claim to divinity. To claim to be the Son of God was blasphemous to the Jew because it was to profane the name of God (John 19:7; Leviticus 24:16).

Your source said:

In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

Is it "perfectly natural" for the agent himself to say "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?" Is it "perfectly natural" for the agent to say to "I will multiply your seed." Why didn't Gabriel speak this way? Gabriel was God's agent too. Why didn't Gabriel say to Mary, "My power shall overshadow you." But he didn't. He said, "The power of the Most high shall overshadow you." Yet the Messenger who spoke to Hagar said, "I will multiply your seed."

Why didn't other "agents" speak like the Messenger who appeared to Moses and Hagar?

Your explanation is

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Hi Wile, Yes Jesus was in the form of a servant, the same position he had before the world was.

Jesus was NOT in the form of a servant before the world was. If this was true, then Paul's assertion that He "BECAME" a servant makes no sense (Philippians 2:7).

One earth he was a man, before that he was a highly created spiritual being. He was a FORM or IMAGE of his God.

Provide the scripture which says this. Again Paul said that Christ pre-existed in the form of God and took upon Himself the form of a servant (Philippians 2:5-11).

How do I know, Jesus says that HE (Jesus) has a God, and he tells us that his Father is the ONLY God. Now what does that tell you?

Jesus called His Father His God and said that He was the "only true God" before He was exalted to His former postition. He came as a servant but has been exalted again. According to the apostle John Jesus Christ is the "true God and eternal life" now (1 John 5:20 ESV).

1 must be restudied, especially the word "logos", try using the words "God's plan" in its place and see what it says.

So God's "plan" became flesh (John 1:14)?"

 

[OneGodInChrist]

God the Son manifested Himself in the flesh all throughout the OT....where have you been, brother?

Perhaps you should study-up on Malek Yahweh and tell us why He was called Yahweh; was worshipped as Yahweh, and was offered animal sacrifices!

The Triune Creator is not only limited to the NT....as the OT clearly informs the reader.

I don't believe there was anywhere in thE Old Testsment thAT He was God the Son. The theophanies that you're referring to such as when He appeared to Jacob as an angel, to Abraham, and as the fourth man in in the fiery furnace was simply GOD, not "God the Son." Nowhere does the Bible teach the concept of God the Son, it does however teach that Jesus Christ was the SON OF GOD.

The Bible teaches thst AL THE FULNESS of the Godhead dwells in Christ Col. 2:9, not just one thitd

 

[Redeemed-777]

All of this spiritual blindness (leading to arguing) just proves once again ...
Man needs spiritual revelation from God to believe in such spiritual truths as the Triune Godhead.

The Triune Godhead is in the Scriptures ...
but most people who read about it are just simply BLIND to it.

News Flash ... people like myself do not believe in the Trinity because we were born into it.

However, there are those who believe in it because they were brainwashed from birth.
Sadly, most of these never become born-again where the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside.
Again, this is taught in many Scripture verses.

Re: "brainwashed" above ... Ditto for many millions in other religions and sects/cults.

Jesus told us why He spoke in parables most of the time ...
so that most people who heard Him would NOT understand His words!

I even go so far as to say ...
Jesus' words were spoken mostly to be recorded
so His words would be read down through the years
by the people of the "new covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31).
The Lord makes sure that His elect understand spiritual Truth.

 

[keypurr]

Still sick, but at least the bronchitus part is quickly going away. Now it is just an intense sting in between the eyes.

Good, its going in the right direction then, out.

No, this is my own study. I'm telling you what I read. The only reason I am triune is because what I came to aligns with them (not the other way around).

Then there is hope

First of all, no. I didn't give you what I 'think' I gave you what it says. We can discuss things after that, but I feel like you are jumping past me and missing the crucial and imperative part.

??????

Exactly. Good. Now notice where we left the text just above? If we leave the text, it is just you and me with nothing to hold on to. Long after you and I are gone, the text will still be there for the next generation to talk about. His word stands.

His words will always stand, but man has done a job on it.

I like all of them. I used the KJV because the term for morphe was given as 'form.' It doesn't matter as long as you understand what the word has to mean. I can't mean anything else other than "the same exact thing in a different shape or appearance."

I see Form, Image or Morphe as a creation, part or whole. In this case, I see a seperate being. God was pleased with his form.

See? Both of these too: "The exact thing in a different shape."

No, they differ fron the KJV

Because it is only a guess? Guesses are like gambling. We shouldn't do it because we are probably going to be wrong. I don't like guesses at all where God is concerned. Not only that, but we are told both was and was with. It is very plain somehow that Jesus is one form of God and yet is not the Father from this passage. In a sense, you are agreeing with me, but then are trying to explain it in a way that the text doesn't allow.

All Science started out aqs guesses. Then you have theory before wsome one says its truth. We cannot assume anything. We are suppose to prove before accepting. I guess my line of reason is not the same as yours.

Jesus has a father. Can you show me a scripture where Jesus says He has a god?

I don't want crazy thought, I want His thought.

Below is a collection of verses that might give you a clue as to what I believe in. I have cut them out of my 20 gigs of note from years gone by.

I do not expect you to respond to them all, but note how they relate to the position of Jesus and his God. It is important to understand each other if we are to discuss theology.

OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES

Psalm 89:26-28 – "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 – "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 – "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."

Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

Deu 18:18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Moses taught God was coming in a man, not as a man!

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Jesus heard from who?

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

Mark 5: 7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?

Luke 8: 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.(miracles)

2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has blessed us in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself" (Eph.1:3-5).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

1 Corinthians 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him

NEW TESTAMENT

Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 – "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 – "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 – "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of [b my God[/b]. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 – "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul:
Ephesians 1:3 – "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 – "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:31 – "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Romans 15:6 – "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Peter:
1 Peter 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John:
Revelation 1:6 – "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

"Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ"
(John 17:3).

 

[Apple7]

I don't believe there was anywhere in thE Old Testsment thAT He was God the Son. The theophanies that you're referring to such as when He appeared to Jacob as an angel, to Abraham, and as the fourth man in in the fiery furnace was simply GOD, not "God the Son."

Then why does Jesus tell us that Abraham saw Him?

Nowhere does the Bible teach the concept of God the Son, it does however teach that Jesus Christ was the SON OF GOD.

Show us where it says God the Father.

The Bible teaches thst AL THE FULNESS of the Godhead dwells in Christ Col. 2:9, not just one thitd

So God does occupy flesh after all...thanks!

 

[keypurr]

Look how silly you sound, pops.

In your demented mind, Jesus was not deity at all, and yet through Jesus a hundred billion trillion galaxies (that we know of) came into being and were formed. But…according to you, Jesus had nothing to do with it…according to you, God the Father had to first create Jesus so that He could then have assistance in creating the entire Universe because God the Father needed help in this regard.

You purposefully reduce-down an infinite Creator to requiring help of creation, in creating.

Nice job pops!

All comes from the father Apple, ALL.

Had I been invited to the creation I could maybe answer that. All I got to work on is the scriptures. All we have been told is that God created THROUGH Jesus. Your mind has a problem with that. You have to add that Jesus was God because God used him to create.

Were you invited to the creation party?

 

[keypurr]

Jesus was NOT in the form of a servant before the world was. If this was true, then Paul's assertion that He "BECAME" a servant makes no sense (Philippians 2:7).

He was always a servant

Provide the scripture which says this. Again Paul said that Christ pre-existed in the form of God and took upon Himself the form of a servant (Philippians 2:5-11).

A servant again in a hiuman form

Jesus called His Father His God and said that He was the "only true God" before He was exalted to His former postition. He came as a servant but has been exalted again. According to the apostle John Jesus Christ is the "true God and eternal life" now (1 John 5:20 ESV).

So God's "plan" became flesh (John 1:14)?"

AMEN, he was the first of all creation. He was a form, Image or Morphe of his Father who is God.

Question for you,
Who were the morning stars who sang together at creation?

 

[Apple7]

All comes from the father Apple, ALL.

Had I been invited to the creation I could maybe answer that. All I got to work on is the scriptures. All we have been told is that God created THROUGH Jesus. Your mind has a problem with that. You have to add that Jesus was God because God used him to create.

Were you invited to the creation party?

No, pops.

In order for unitarianism to work, you must turn a blind-eye towards any scripture which contradicts your paradigm.

Scripture clearly tells us that the Trinity was involved in creation.

In your quest to deny Jesus’ deity, you have reduced-down an infinite creator to something of your very own creation.

You do not worship the God of the Holy Bible.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The morning stars were men, but they had their type in the creation of the stars.

nothing to do with before the creation.


LA

 

[Apple7]

You missed the point Apple, God created THROUGH Jesus, he performed miracles THROUGH Jesus. Power was given to Jesus by his God. Does that mean that Jesus has deity???? Where do we draw the line of what is Deity?

Open up your mind friend, you and I both have a lot to learn.

Let's look at it another way, pops.

You have already admitted that there are two involved in creation of the Universe.

Why did you decide on two?:idea:

 

[Pierac]

I know you 'think' that. I'm a teacher, I get this same grandiose delusion from a lot of kids that think exactly this. You'll eventually grow up (or not). No skin off my nose. It all pans out at grade-report time.

Pharisee? You don't even know what/who they are. No it doesn't feel familiar. If you were in my league (and forgive me for the boast), you'd not say such things. They are really amatuer hour at TOL, kinds of posts.

You have shown yourself not much for me even to think about.
You are 1) too worldly with your mouth
2) not too great at English and nowhere near even an inkling of adept at any foreign language (you know, kind of necessary for most of our discussions)
3) pretty much full of teen-angst (whether you should have grown out of it by now or not)
4) have horrible reading comprehension (just thinking of all the times you've simply not gotten it, and quite obviously so)
5) nobody even close to who I'd want to take my godly or spiritual advise 6) unqualified, by Jesus or anybody else you'd care to ask credentials from (He is ashamed of your flesh getting in the way)
7) shall I continue?
You really need to get over yourself. This post is a kindness in acknowledging your pretentious existence in this thread.

I get paid for these kinds of report cards. You don't always get to read your school files but I hope this helps. Give it to your mother/father/grandma and ask them to go over it with you step by step. It'll hurt but you'll be better off for it. You are welcome for my considerable expertise and time that will not be extended to this extent in the future.

In Him

-Lon

Thus the perfect example, You post scripture and I offer a very Hebraic view that not even you or others can counter by your lack of response! So instead of going head to head in a debate over the scripture being discussed. You post about personal issues you have with me. If your "a teacher" then teach! Stop winning about how I make you look in public! :readthis:

So teacher LON! Tell us how Jesus can have a God? Yep, stop complaining about my style of posting and tell me How Jesus himself teaches you Lon and says to you Lon He has a GOD? Yet you claim he is GOD! :think:

I offer the floor to your teaching... please offer a correction to grandiose delusion from a lot of kids that think exactly this!

TEACH... Teacher Lon... :carryon:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[keypurr]

Let's look at it another way, pops.

You have already admitted that there are two involved in creation of the Universe.

Why did you decide on two?:idea:

I didn't narrow it down to two. My study is a work in progress. How many morning stars are there? We're they also involved in creation? Apple, we might never know. But we do know of two. My mind is open to any information God wants me to have. I have asked you to join me in going into this deep, but your not interested for it might shake your faith. Job talks about morning stars, Revelation tells us Jesus is a morning star. Who or what are the others? Why are they mentioned? Don't you care? Did not God give you a mind to use? Or is the function of your head just to hold a hat?

 

[OneGodInChrist]

Then why does Jesus tell us that Abraham saw Him?





Show us where it says God the Father.




So God does occupy flesh after all...thanks!

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews then picked up stones to stone Him, not because He was claiming to be "God the Son" but because they recognized that He was claiming to be the I AM that appeared to Moses at the burning bush. The one who appeared to Moses was none other than God Himself

Where you ask me to show where it says God the Father in Scripture: John 6:26 "Labour not for the meat wish perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath GOD THE FATHER sealed."

The Bible DOES teach and refer to God the Father
It does NOT however refer to "God the Son"

Jesus was the Son of God and the Son of man. He was not "God the Son."
Instead, He was the God of the Old Testament revealed in flesh or manifesst in flesh 1Tim. 3:16

In the Old Testament God was the Father and in the New He BECAME the Son and yet never ceased still being what He always was.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are simply different MANIFESTATIONS, of God, not persons.

God bless

 

[Apple7]

I didn't narrow it down to two. My study is a work in progress. How many morning stars are there? We're they also involved in creation? Apple, we might never know. But we do know of two. My mind is open to any information God wants me to have. I have asked you to join me in going into this deep, but your not interested for it might shake your faith. Job talks about morning stars, Revelation tells us Jesus is a morning star. Who or what are the others? Why are they mentioned? Don't you care? Did not God give you a mind to use? Or is the function of your head just to hold a hat?

So...if you admit to two, then what is to keep you from admitting to three?

 

[Apple7]

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews then picked up stones to stone Him, not because He was claiming to be "God the Son" but because they recognized that He was claiming to be the I AM that appeared to Moses at the burning bush. The one who appeared to Moses was none other than God Himself

Not exactly.


Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…


Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

(John 8.56 – 58)


Who did Abraham see?

God the Son, Jesus.



Compare to the OT account to which Jesus refers...



Genesis chapters 18 – 19 comprise the longest Trinitarian proof text in the entire Holy Bible.

• Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)
• Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)
• Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3)
• “They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)
• Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)
• God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)
• According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)
• Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’

Where you ask me to show where it says God the Father in Scripture: John 6:26 "Labour not for the meat wish perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath GOD THE FATHER sealed."

How does that differ from this...


Titus 2.13

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

prosdechomenoi tēn makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tēs doxēs tou megalou theou kai sōtēros ēmōn christou iēsou

Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The Bible DOES teach and refer to God the Father
It does NOT however refer to "God the Son"

Yes, it does.

Jesus was the Son of God and the Son of man. He was not "God the Son."

He was, and He is.

Instead, He was the God of the Old Testament revealed in flesh or manifesst in flesh 1Tim. 3:16

As the Son.

In the Old Testament God was the Father and in the New He BECAME the Son and yet never ceased still being what He always was.

The Father never became flesh.

However, the Spirit and the Son, did...

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are simply different MANIFESTATIONS, of God, not persons.

God bless

Which is referred to as the Trinity.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

OneGodinChrist said:

We must always remember that the apostles were coming out of the Old Testament and into the new and not vise versa. They were Old Testament Jews that simplt believed thst God was absolutely One Deu. 6:4

First, the Hebrew word is "echad" which is from "yachad" which means a plural one.

Second, Paul applied verse 16 to Christ which means that verse 4 applied to Christ (Deuteronomy 6:16; 1 Corinthians 10:9).

Third, Paul said that Christ was the "Rock" that followed them out of Egypt. God said that He was the "Rock" that begat them out of Egypt (1 Corinthians 10:4; Deuteronomy 32:18).

 

[keypurr]

So...if you admit to two, then what is to keep you from admitting to three?

Answer my question first.

Who were the morning stars that sang together at the creation?
And how many were there?

Stop beating around the bush and tell me. It should be easy for a person of your expertise in theology.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews then picked up stones to stone Him, not because He was claiming to be "God the Son" but because they recognized that He was claiming to be the I AM that appeared to Moses at the burning bush. The one who appeared to Moses was none other than God Himself

Where you ask me to show where it says God the Father in Scripture: John 6:26 "Labour not for the meat wish perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath GOD THE FATHER sealed."

The Bible DOES teach and refer to God the Father
It does NOT however refer to "God the Son"

Jesus was the Son of God and the Son of man. He was not "God the Son."
Instead, He was the God of the Old Testament revealed in flesh or manifesst in flesh 1Tim. 3:16

In the Old Testament God was the Father and in the New He BECAME the Son and yet never ceased still being what He always was.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are simply different MANIFESTATIONS, of God, not persons.

God bless

I believe that no man has seen God. But Jesus did in his pre-exsistance, but he was not a man then.

Why would God seal God in John 6:26?

Jesus has a God, why would God need a God?

I think Jesus was much higher than the Angels before he came here.

Some folks think I'm a bit crazy, but I really am a just person with vision. But I need new glasses. Apple7 will tell you that if you do not agree with him, your wrong. And he will prove it using his Greek reading ability.

Peace friend

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Answer my question first.

Who were the morning stars that sang together at the creation?
And how many were there?

Stop beating around the bush and tell me. It should be easy for a person of your expertise in theology.

You only have to research stars, morning stars, sons of God,etc to know what they were, but so far you you just ignore me about it, and not the first time either.

bye.

LA