ECT Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?

[Nang]

Galatians 2:7 disagrees. :idunno:

Same gospel. Two different preachers.

One of Peter's messages to the Jews, said:

". . Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you." II Peter 3:15

Paul had verified Peter's gospel and had written these Jews the same message that Peter was preaching.

 

[Lighthouse]

:sozo:Jeremy! Jeremy! Jeremy! Jeremy!

 

[Stripe]

Hi Nang, You said, Can you please outline what the "one gospel message" throughout time actually is? You continue, What do you mean by "different ministry?" Let's try to stay on topic... What was Peter's minstry contrasted with Paul's minstry? Are you saying Peter and Paul preached the same gospel message? Are you implying that Peter, Paul, Noah, Moses and Abraham all preached / believed the same gospel? What would that be? Please clarify here... If you evangelize an unsaved person, what do you tell tell them? What did you believe to become a member of the body of Christ? Please be specific...Now, to open another can of worms... To answer the OP, we do have the gospel that was preached during the Tribulation. The Tribulation started on the Day of Pentecost and was suspended approximately 9 months later at the stoning of Stephen. After we clarify what you mean by "gospel" (good news?), we can dig into the Acts material and Peter's sermon at Pentecost. God bless, Jeremy

Hi, Jeremy. :wave:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no difference between the gospel given to Peter or the gospel given to Paul.

Here Paul speaks about the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles:

"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2).

If there were only "one" gospel then there would be absolutely no reason to specify that the gospel that he is speaking of is the one "which I preach among the Gentiles."

If the gospel which Paul "preached among the Gentiles" was the same one that the other Apostles were preaching then why would Paul want those Apostles to consider its relationship to the gospel they were proclaiming? That would make no sense.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Same gospel. Two different preachers.

One of Peter's messages to the Jews, said:

". . Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you." II Peter 3:15

Paul had verified Peter's gospel and had written these Jews the same message that Peter was preaching.

Yes, but that was not until the Acts period had ended. In the epistle to the Galatians written during the Acts period Paul wrote that those following his teaching were no longer under the law:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal.3:23-25).

At the same time when Paul wrote these words we can see those at the church in Jerusalem remained zealous of the law and even continued to participate in ordinances of the law in the Temple. James said the following to Paul:

"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law" (Acts 21:20).

 

[Nang]

Can you please outline what the "one gospel message" throughout time actually is?

I already did, but I will repeat. The one gospel is the Gospel of Grace that is established upon Godly Covenant promising a Savior that would destroy Satan and overcome death.

What was Peter's minstry contrasted with Paul's minstry?

Peter primarily ministered to Jews and Paul primarily ministered to Gentiles; however, there are incidences when their ministries overlapped and Peter taught Gentiles and Paul witnessed to Jews.

Are you saying Peter and Paul preached the same gospel message?

Absolutely. There is only one Gospel of Grace.

Are you implying that Peter, Paul, Noah, Moses and Abraham all preached / believed the same gospel? What would that be?

Absolutely. They all preached the covenant promises of salvation that would be provided by the grace of God.

Please clarify here... If you evangelize an unsaved person, what do you tell tell them?

Very briefly, and in a nutshell, I reiterate the Law in order to reveal to the unsaved that they are sinners before God, but then I tell them the good news that God sent His only begotten Son into this world, under the same Law, to fulfill all the Law for His people on their behalf. And then, as their Mediator and substitute, He went to the cross bearing the sins of His people, and died their death in their stead. Then He overcame death and resurrected back to glory in order to demonstrate His righteousness, victory, and powers over sin, death, and the devil so that sinners might have faith in Him and His grace, to know salvation.

What did you believe to become a member of the body of Christ? Please be specific...

I was regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Christ (born again from above) and was given a new heart and new ears and eyes to believe the same gospel message I just posted. When this gospel was preached to me, the Holy Spirit enabled me to believe in Christ and to repent from sin. Now, being anointed by Christ's Holy Spirit, I have been given an earnest (down-payment and guarantee) of everlasting life; Christ being my "surety."

To answer the OP, we do have the gospel that was preached during the Tribulation. The Tribulation started on the Day of Pentecost and was suspended approximately 9 months later at the stoning of Stephen. After we clarify what you mean by "gospel" (good news?), we can dig into the Acts material and Peter's sermon at Pentecost.

I do not accept your description of tribulation, nor your time-lines.

But any and all your dispensational attempts to confuse, will not affect my emphasis . . . that there is only one Gospel of Grace, which is everlasting.

The Gospel of Grace has been proclaimed by godly men since Genesis and will continue to be proclaimed by godly men until the Lord returns. II Peter 3:14-18

Nang

 

[beloved57]

Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?

The Gospel of the Kingdom, of God's Sovereignty !

His Sovereignty in Salvation as well as providence. Matt 24:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col 1
23: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

It's all over, the end has come and gone!

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Hi Lighthouse!!
Hi Stripe!!

Nang,

You keep trying to muddy the waters... It is necessary to respond to all of your points... You said,

Same gospel. Two different preachers.

One of Peter's messages to the Jews, said:

". . Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you." II Peter 3:15

Paul had verified Peter's gospel and had written these Jews the same message that Peter was preaching.

No, no, no... You forgot to quote the first half of the next verse...

2 Peter 3:15, 16a (NKJV)
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,

You claim that Paul "verified" Peter's gospel... If this is true, why does Peter say Paul's message is difficult to understand? Simple, really... Peter and Paul are preaching different gospels, but the Holy Spirit has confirmed to Peter that Paul's gospel is a valid gospel from the resurrected and ascended Lord Jesus Christ.

Secondly, do even you know when Paul wrote to the Jews Peter addresses here? I do... If you don't know, how can you claim that Paul "verified" anything Peter preached? I would like to know if you can buttress your argument. If not, I'll show where Paul writes to these Jews and reads them the riot act for being hypocritical. It appears as if these Jews have "gotten their acts together" when Peter addresses them in his second epistle.

I will quote your next post and respond accordingly...

God Bless,

Jeremy

 

[Nang]

You claim that Paul "verified" Peter's gospel... If this is true, why does Peter say Paul's message is difficult to understand?

The verse does not say it was "Paul's message" that was hard to understand. The context of the passage refers to the promise of "the new heavens and new earth" and the supposed delay and "longsuffering" of God, as being hard to understand. Remember, Peter was addressing false prophets that scoffed at the delay of the Lord's return, and it was this subject that was causing distress amongst the saints.

Simple, really... Peter and Paul are preaching different gospels,

This is merely your assertion that violates the entire context of II Peter.

but the Holy Spirit has confirmed to Peter that Paul's gospel is a valid gospel from the resurrected and ascended Lord Jesus Christ.

Indeed. And I say it is the same gospel message that Peter was preaching throughout his epistle.

Secondly, do even you know when Paul wrote to the Jews Peter addresses here? I do... If you don't know, how can you claim that Paul "verified" anything Peter preached?

Scripture reveals Paul had written many epistles to these Jews. II Peter 3:16

If not, I'll show where Paul writes to these Jews and reads them the riot act for being hypocritical. It appears as if these Jews have "gotten their acts together" when Peter addresses them in his second epistle.

What do Paul's actions as an Elder have to do with the Everlasting Gospel of Grace we now discuss?

I will quote your next post and respond accordingly...

Go for it . . . :crackup:

 

[Stripe]

Hi Stripe!!

Just so you know, I'm reading along. But I prefer to leave these discussions up to they guys with the where-with-all to deal with Calvinists. :chuckle:

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

I already did, but I will repeat. The one gospel is the Gospel of Grace that is established upon Godly Covenant promising a Savior that would destroy Satan and overcome death.

So then, what is the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of the Circumcision, the Gospel of the Uncircumcision, Paul's "my gospel," etc...? I think that it's important to understand that "gospel" means "good news," and the good news for man has changed throughout time.

Secondly, can you show me where Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc... believed that a Savior would destroy satan and overcome death? If what you say is true, then we should have a consistent record of the nation of Israel continually preaching this message throughout her history, right? You continue,

Peter primarily ministered to Jews and Paul primarily ministered to Gentiles; however, there are incidences when their ministries overlapped and Peter taught Gentiles and Paul witnessed to Jews.

This is the most accurate statement you make...

Absolutely. There is only one Gospel of Grace.

Can you cite an instance where Peter, or even Jesus Himself, preaches "the gospel of Grace?"

Absolutely. They all preached the covenant promises of salvation that would be provided by the grace of God.

Can you cite Scripture to show that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc... believed that a future Son of the God of Israel would live a sinless life, dies on a cross for their salvation and be raised from the dead? In fact, can you show me where any of the Prophets or Apostles (other than Paul) preached this message?

Very briefly, and in a nutshell, I reiterate the Law in order to reveal to the unsaved that they are sinners before God, but then I tell them the good news that God sent His only begotten Son into this world, under the same Law, to fulfill all the Law for His people on their behalf. And then, as their Mediator and substitute, He went to the cross bearing the sins of His people, and died their death in their stead. Then He overcame death and resurrected back to glory in order to demonstrate His righteousness, victory, and powers over sin, death, and the devil so that sinners might have faith in Him and His grace, to know salvation.

Bravo! This is definitely the message of salvation for the body of Christ! If this is the universal message for salvation that runs the corridor of all time, can you cite anything outside Paul's epistles showing belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation?

I was regenerated by the Holy Spirit of Christ (born again from above) and was given a new heart and new ears and eyes to believe the same gospel message I just posted. When this gospel was preached to me, the Holy Spirit enabled me to believe in Christ and to repent from sin. Now, being anointed by Christ's Holy Spirit, I have been given an earnest (down-payment and guarantee) of everlasting life; Christ being my "surety."

Ahhhh... You're a covenant theologian. Makes sense. I will continue to put your feet to the fire and demand answers to your claims!

I do not accept your description of tribulation, nor your time-lines.

But any and all your dispensational attempts to confuse, will not affect my emphasis . . . that there is only one Gospel of Grace, which is everlasting.

A couple things here... I hope you don't accept my description of the Tribulation. You must deal with Peter's own words at Pentecost:

Acts 2:16 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:

Peter identifies that "this event" is a fulfillment of Joel's tribulation setting prophecy (Joel 2:28-32). In fact, the Holy Spirit inspires Peter to change the wording of the prophecy for clarity. Joel's original prophecy said:

Joel 2:28a "And it shall come to pass afterward..."

However, the Holy Spirit inspires Peter to change the prophecy to:

Acts 2:17a 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,

If there was any question as to whether Peter was quoting an "end-times, tribluation, last days" prophecy, now we know... Peter was telling his audience that the Tribulation was starting. In fact, the pouring out of the indwelling Holy Spirit after water baptism was a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy... More on that later if necessary.

The Gospel of Grace has been proclaimed by godly men since Genesis and will continue to be proclaimed by godly men until the Lord returns. II Peter 3:14-18

Nang

I showed you earlier that your 2 Peter passage showed that Peter was confused. Secondly, can you cite a few examples of anyone other than Paul preaching a Grace message?

God bless,

Jeremy

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

The verse does not say it was "Paul's message" that was hard to understand. The context of the passage refers to the promise of "the new heavens and new earth" and the supposed delay and "longsuffering" of God, as being hard to understand. Remember, Peter was addressing false prophets that scoffed at the delay of the Lord's return, and it was this subject that was causing distress amongst the saints.

:bang: Are you serious?? I can only assume that you are attempting to obfuscate here... I can't let you get away with this... If necessary, I will exegete the entire third chapter. The context of the the third chapter actually supports my claims that Peter believes the Tribulation started and was put on hold! But now, to address your foolishness...

2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15a and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--

The prior context shows that Peter is still expecting the 2nd coming of Christ. As Peter's followers look forward the the new heavens and the new earth promised to them (v13), Peter admonishes them be diligent to be found by Christ in peace, without spot and blameless... Then, Peter gives validation to Paul's ministry and the separate and distinct message Paul preaches...

2 Peter 3:15b as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Please be honest here... Peter is clear that Paul's epistles also address "these things" of salvation, IN WHICH (Paul's epistles) are some things hard to understand...

I know you see this. If you really believe what you claim, then prove it.

This is merely your assertion that violates the entire context of II Peter.

Do you even understand the context of 2 Peter 3? Peter writes his second epistle about 40 years after Pentecost. Peter has long been expecting the Tribulation and the promised return of Christ! It hasn't happened yet... Why not? Israel rejected God again. Israel rejected her Messiah again. God set them aside and raised up the Apostle Paul with a new gospel. That's why Paul's epistles "are some things hard to understand..."

Indeed. And I say it is the same gospel message that Peter was preaching throughout his epistle.

Prove it.

Scripture reveals Paul had written many epistles to these Jews. II Peter 3:16

Again, prove it. I refuse to help you with the crystal clear answer until you are honest with the passage.

What do Paul's actions as an Elder have to do with the Everlasting Gospel of Grace we now discuss?

Paul evangelized everyone he came across. He recognized a group of religious Jews who were hypocritical. He addresses them in one of his letters, and Peter addresses the same group later in his second epistle.

Go for it . . . :crackup:

I did... Now it's your turn to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[notreligus]

So then, what is the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of the Circumcision, the Gospel of the Uncircumcision, Paul's "my gospel," etc...? I think that it's important to understand that "gospel" means "good news," and the good news for man has changed throughout time.

Secondly, can you show me where Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc... believed that a Savior would destroy satan and overcome death? If what you say is true, then we should have a consistent record of the nation of Israel continually preaching this message throughout her history, right? You continue,



This is the most accurate statement you make...



Can you cite an instance where Peter, or even Jesus Himself, preaches "the gospel of Grace?"



Can you cite Scripture to show that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc... believed that a future Son of the God of Israel would live a sinless life, dies on a cross for their salvation and be raised from the dead? In fact, can you show me where any of the Prophets or Apostles (other than Paul) preached this message?



Bravo! This is definitely the message of salvation for the body of Christ! If this is the universal message for salvation that runs the corridor of all time, can you cite anything outside Paul's epistles showing belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation?



Ahhhh... You're a covenant theologian. Makes sense. I will continue to put your feet to the fire and demand answers to your claims!



A couple things here... I hope you don't accept my description of the Tribulation. You must deal with Peter's own words at Pentecost:



Peter identifies that "this event" is a fulfillment of Joel's tribulation setting prophecy (Joel 2:28-32). In fact, the Holy Spirit inspires Peter to change the wording of the prophecy for clarity. Joel's original prophecy said:



However, the Holy Spirit inspires Peter to change the prophecy to:



If there was any question as to whether Peter was quoting an "end-times, tribluation, last days" prophecy, now we know... Peter was telling his audience that the Tribulation was starting. In fact, the pouring out of the indwelling Holy Spirit after water baptism was a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy... More on that later if necessary.



I showed you earlier that your 2 Peter passage showed that Peter was confused. Secondly, can you cite a few examples of anyone other than Paul preaching a Grace message?

God bless,

Jeremy

Peter was not confused. Peter honored the authority of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. In other words, he let James overrule him. Don't you recall how Peter was scolded for the episode with Cornelius? Consider this:

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
Act 10:35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Act 10:36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
Act 10:37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Act 10:41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Act 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Act 11:1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Act 11:2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying,
Act 11:3 "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them."


Peter later admits his failing, but it was not due to his being confused. Let's not have a re-write of what happened. It is recorded quite plainly in the Book of Acts.

Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Acts 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
Acts 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
Acts 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
Acts 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Acts 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

 

[Nang]

So then, what is the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of the Circumcision, the Gospel of the Uncircumcision, Paul's "my gospel," etc...?

The Gospel of Grace.

I think that it's important to understand that "gospel" means "good news," and the good news for man has changed throughout time.

I disagree. The “good news” has always been that God would provide the Savior who would conquer sin, death and the devil, establishing reconciliation and access between God an man in the heavenlies.

Secondly, can you show me where Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc... believed that a Savior would destroy satan and overcome death?

All believed the first covenant promise made to Eve in Genesis 3:15.

If what you say is true, then we should have a consistent record of the nation of Israel continually preaching this message throughout her history, right?

The original promise made to Eve was repeated to Abraham, but only a remnant of the nation of Israel inherited the spiritual promises and given faith to believe in the heavenly promises.

For there were two covenants made with man by God. Adam was created under the Covenant of Works. Eve received the Covenant of Grace. A godly lineage from Abel to Noah preached righteousness under the Covenant of Grace. The rest of mankind perished according to the Covenant of Works (Law).

Then Abraham received the promises of God that reiterated both Works and Grace. Only a remnant of Abraham’s seed received the Gospel of Grace within the nation of Israel, and the rest were cast away by God for their failures under the Covenant of Works (Law).

Galatians 4:22-31 reveals the truth of the two covenants very plainly and clearly.

Can you cite an instance where Peter, or even Jesus Himself, preaches "the gospel of Grace?"

Peter and Jesus Christ preached nothing but the Gospel of Grace, which permeates the entirety of Holy Scripture. The Gospel of Grace = The Word of God.

Jesus prayed to the Father:

“ I have given them Your word . . . sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” John 17:14a; 17

Can you cite Scripture to show that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc... believed that a future Son of the God of Israel would live a sinless life, dies on a cross for their salvation and be raised from the dead? In fact, can you show me where any of the Prophets or Apostles (other than Paul) preached this message?

All preached the promise of the “Seed;” a Savior who would destroy sin, death, and the devil as promised in Genesis 3:15. The godly lineage of Abel, Seth, etc. practiced blood offering showing comprehension of the principle of life for a life and substitutional atonement. Noah preached obedience and righteousness which typified the sinless nature of the hope of mankind. And of course Abraham believed in the power of God to resurrect His people, when he and Isaac willingly obeyed God’s command to offer Isaac as a sacrifice to God . . . but then were shown that it is “The Lord WillProvide” (Genesis 22:13-14) His own salvation and sacrifice to save His people.

And of course, the Lord Jesus told the disciples that ALL of Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets reveals His Person. (Luke 24:44)

And one cannot claim David was ignorant of the attributes of the Savior when He wrote the psalms or that the prophets did not comprehend the many prophecies of the Messiah.

Only unbelieving Jews were ignorant of the truths of the promised Christ. And only a very few had their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit to “see the kingdom.” John 3:3

I hope you don't accept my description of the Tribulation.

Don’t worry. I don’t and won’t.

You must deal with Peter's own words at Pentecost:


Peter identifies that "this event" is a fulfillment of Joel's tribulation setting prophecy (Joel 2:28-32).

Joel’s prophecy had all to do with the coming of Christ; the full manifestation of the Covenant of Grace; and the global ministry and commission of the Holy Spirit to save persons out of all the nations by the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I showed you earlier that your 2 Peter passage showed that Peter was confused. Secondly, can you cite a few examples of anyone other than Paul preaching a Grace message?

Peter was not confused, but inspired; else he could not have wrote: I Peter 4:10-11; II Peter 1:16-21

Rather, Peter warned about false prophets who would appear in the churches, causing much confusion and destructive heresies: II Peter Chapter 2.



Sir, your questions reveal you have no clue as to what constitutes the Gospel of Grace.

Nang

 

[Nang]

If necessary, I will exegete the entire third chapter.

Be my guest . . .

The context of the the third chapter actually supports my claims that Peter believes the Tribulation started and was put on hold!

It does not, at all, but if you actually exegete the chapter, within context of the entire epistle, perhaps by God's grace you will be shown you are way off track!

The prior context shows that Peter is still expecting the 2nd coming of Christ. As Peter's followers look forward the the new heavens and the new earth promised to them (v13), Peter admonishes them be diligent to be found by Christ in peace, without spot and blameless... Then, Peter gives validation to Paul's ministry and the separate and distinct message Paul preaches...

I agree with the above.

Please be honest here... Peter is clear that Paul's epistles also address "these things" of salvation, IN WHICH (Paul's epistles) are some things hard to understand...

I know you see this. If you really believe what you claim, then prove it.

You know, it was a little hard for Abraham to continue to hope and wait for the promise of the heavenly city, and a little hard for him to understand when he did not receive the promises that he expected in his earthly lifetime . . . but Abraham persevered in his faith (Hebrews 11:9-10; 13-16 ). . . and that is exactly what Peter exhorts the saints in his day, who were looking for the heavenly city, to do also.

Do you even understand the context of 2 Peter 3? Peter writes his second epistle about 40 years after Pentecost. Peter has long been expecting the Tribulation and the promised return of Christ! It hasn't happened yet... Why not? Israel rejected God again. Israel rejected her Messiah again. God set them aside and raised up the Apostle Paul with a new gospel. That's why Paul's epistles "are some things hard to understand..."

Your conclusion is based on a whole lot of theory added to the Word of God. Not wise to let your presuppositions and theories rule your exegesis!

Nang

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Peter was not confused. Peter honored the authority of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. In other words, he let James overrule him. Don't you recall how Peter was scolded for the episode with Cornelius? Consider this:

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
Act 10:35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Act 10:36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
Act 10:37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Act 10:41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Act 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Act 11:1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Act 11:2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying,
Act 11:3 "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them."


Peter later admits his failing, but it was not due to his being confused. Let's not have a re-write of what happened. It is recorded quite plainly in the Book of Acts.

Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Acts 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
Acts 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
Acts 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
Acts 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Acts 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

Off topic, Apples & Oranges, etc...

notreligus,

I. Think. You. Missed. The. Point.

We were discussing 2 Peter 3, not Acts 10 and Acts 15. If you would like to do so, I'm game... Food for thought concerning your passages...

Why is Peter sent to Cornelius and told to "doubt nothing" by the Holy Spirit?

When Peter arrives, he tells Cornelius it is UNLAWFUL for him to keep company with or go to one of another nation...

Now, back to where you joined our discussion...

Please feel free to explain why Peter says Paul's epistles are difficult to understand...

--Jeremy

 

[notreligus]

Off topic, Apples & Oranges, etc...

notreligus,

I. Think. You. Missed. The. Point.

We were discussing 2 Peter 3, not Acts 10 and Acts 15. If you would like to do so, I'm game... Food for thought concerning your passages...

Why is Peter sent to Cornelius and told to "doubt nothing" by the Holy Spirit?

When Peter arrives, he tells Cornelius it is UNLAWFUL for him to keep company with or go to one of another nation...

Now, back to where you joined our discussion...

Please feel free to explain why Peter says Paul's epistles are difficult to understand...

--Jeremy

"Our discussion?" I started the thread. And, this is a public forum. If you are going to claim to be a grace teacher how about showing some to the Christian breathren here and not be such a wise guy?

Peter's statement that you quoted is in keeping with what I posted. You've shown no distinction. You are making up distinctions where they do not exist. At best you are just hair-splitting.

The Book of Acts is a book that shows the doctrinal transition of the Church from one that was steeped in Judaism to one with an emphasis on faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross for salvation. I showed the context of what I posted. How about you doing the same thing?

 

[tetelestai]

Can you provide a sentence of this structure that refers to the same object?

Just use the NIV

(Gal 2:7 NIV) On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews

Much less confusing, and only one gospel.

Unless you're one of those King James Onlyist/MAD people

 

[Jacob]

Well, I'm no Greek scholar, but the English uses two definite articles before two differently described nouns. That makes the two nouns distinct objects.

If I say, "The green apple and the red apple" that means I most certainly have more than one apple. For your understanding to be justified the verse should read, 'the red and green apple - the gospel for the circumcised and the uncircumcised to Pater for the Jews and to Paul for the Gentiles.' But it doesn't say that.

So, unless you have a good reason why I should trust an alternative translation over the NKJV, I remain justified in believing there were two gospels.

Note the two different greek texts. Also, the second "gospel" seems to be added by the translator.

Galatians 2:7 (KJV)

But g235 ἀλλά alla

contrariwise, g5121 τοὐναντίον tounantion

when they saw g1492 εἴδω eidō

that g3754 ὅτι hoti

the gospel g2098 εὐαγγέλιον euaggelion

of the uncircumcision g203 ἀκροβυστία akrobystia

was committed unto me, g4100 πιστεύω pisteuō

as g2531 καθώς kathōs

[the gospel] of the circumcision g4061 περιτομή peritomē

[was] unto Peter; g4074 Πέτρος Petros



Galatians 2:7 (NASB)

But g235 ἀλλά alla

on the contrary, g5121 τοὐναντίον tounantion

seeing g3708 ὁράω horaō

that g3754 ὅτι hoti

I had been entrusted with g4100 πιστεύω pisteuō

the gospel g2098 εὐαγγέλιον euaggelion

to the uncircumcised, g203 ἀκροβυστία akrobystia

just as g2531 καθώς kathōs

Peter g4074 Πέτρος Petros

had been to the circumcised g4061 περιτομή peritomē