ROMANS 5:1 JUSTIFIED BY FAITH

[God's Truth]

Due to this forum I have endeavored to open my heart to what justification by faith means. If I was not born again before, I may have been helped by this discussion to be born again now. The blood of Christ and the Word are indeed incorruptible and eternal. I believe that those who truly, deeply believe will have eternal life.

But I would still like to know something more about what others believe regarding the following questions. Can one know whether others are born again and whether oneself has been born again? And if one can know, HOW does one know? The Epistles state that those who are born again true believers show by holiness and their actions that they have believed and have eternal life. A belief in other ways of knowing would arguably open the door to an antinomianism apparently rejected by Luther and many denominations.

There is quite a bit at stake here.

Also, I would like to know what others believe one has to profess and accept to have eternal life. To accept Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior is clear--but different denominations obviously have different ideas about essential truths and different doctrines, even though they all believe in being saved and justification by faith.

Do you want some man's truth like Luther or Calvin, etc, or do you want God's Truth?

If you want God's Truth, then get Jesus' teachings in the New Testament and start doing what he says.

Jesus starts our teaching us to repent of our sins and to believe in him.

I have a powerful testimony of when I was saved.

After I was saved, I wanted to help others to have a powerful testimony too.

 

[Idolater]

...I wanted to help others to have a powerful testimony....

Why?

 

[DougE]

Due to this forum I have endeavored to open my heart to what justification by faith means. If I was not born again before, I may have been helped by this discussion to be born again now. The blood of Christ and the Word are indeed incorruptible and eternal. I believe that those who truly, deeply believe will have eternal life.

But I would still like to know something more about what others believe regarding the following questions. Can one know whether others are born again and whether oneself has been born again? And if one can know, HOW does one know? The Epistles state that those who are born again true believers show by holiness and their actions that they have believed and have eternal life. A belief in other ways of knowing would arguably open the door to an antinomianism apparently rejected by Luther and many denominations.

There is quite a bit at stake here.

Also, I would like to know what others believe one has to profess and accept to have eternal life. To accept Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior is clear--but different denominations obviously have different ideas about essential truths and different doctrines, even though they all believe in being saved and justification by faith.

This is the gospel by which we are saved. We know we have eternal life because of the free gift of righteousness given us by his imputed righteousness ; by what Christ has done to freely save us; we simply believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.

See Romans 3:23 Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6

Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.

See 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:24 Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

He was buried.

He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.

See Romans 4:25 Ephesians 1:7 Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

All we have to do is believe the gospel.

See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

Believing is being persuaded that something is true.

See Romans 4:21

The moment you believe you have eternal life.

Titus 1:1 Titus 1:2 Titus 3:7

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ to have provided payment for your sins and to give you eternal life. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.

　

 

[God's Truth]

Why?

That is really quite a profound question.
I want to help others know Jesus better out of love.

 

[thborn]

This is the gospel by which we are saved. We know we have eternal life because of the free gift of righteousness given us by his imputed righteousness ; by what Christ has done to freely save us; we simply believe the gospel.

True!

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ to have provided payment for your sins and to give you eternal life. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.

　

All absolutely true!

I believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, that faith in Jesus is the only way to be justified, and that we do not save ourselves. I believe in the Gospel, the whole Gospel, and everything that can be irrefutably taught through the Gospel, with the guidance of the Spirit, of course.

People who truly believe all this are true Christians. People who believe all these things are thus justified and members of the true church.

I suspect there are some points in your post that some denominations or groups make (outside of the Bible or as a certain interpretation) which we do not agree on.

Does God judge someone based on the exact way they determine the word "believe" based on the combination of common sense and scholarly knowledge they have?

Couldn't it be that there are some who think they are saved based on an interpretation that says they just have to think to themselves and say to others that they believe these truths when in their hearts they do not believe and are not justified? Obviosuly, there is truly believing and not truly believing, which I am sure you agree on.

 

[thborn]

To be clear... I believe that at the time when someone believes, that person is justified.

 

[God's Truth]

To be clear... I believe that at the time when someone believes, that person is justified.

Do you believe that a person has to confess too, and call on the Lord?

 

[DougE]

This is the gospel by which we are saved. We know we have eternal life because of the free gift of righteousness given us by his imputed righteousness ; by what Christ has done to freely save us; we simply believe the gospel.

True!



All absolutely true!

I believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, that faith in Jesus is the only way to be justified, and that we do not save ourselves. I believe in the Gospel, the whole Gospel, and everything that can be irrefutably taught through the Gospel, with the guidance of the Spirit, of course.

People who truly believe all this are true Christians. People who believe all these things are thus justified and members of the true church.

I suspect there are some points in your post that some denominations or groups make (outside of the Bible or as a certain interpretation) which we do not agree on.

Does God judge someone based on the exact way they determine the word "believe" based on the combination of common sense and scholarly knowledge they have?

Couldn't it be that there are some who think they are saved based on an interpretation that says they just have to think to themselves and say to others that they believe these truths when in their hearts they do not believe and are not justified? Obviosuly, there is truly believing and not truly believing, which I am sure you agree on.

To believe you just have to be persuaded it's true. It's not how much we believe that saves us, Christ Jesus saves us.

 

[DougE]

Do you believe that a person has to confess too, and call on the Lord?

No, Confession was for Israel
We are simply to believe the gospel.
I will be posting soon on this

 

[God's Truth]

No, Confession was for Israel
We are simply to believe the gospel.
I will be posting soon on this

No such thing as no one but the Jews having to repent of their sins. Christ is not divided.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided?



Even Paul preached to the JEWS in JUDEA and JERUSALEM, and to the GREEKS, and to the GENTILES that they are to repent and have faith.



Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

 

[God's Truth]

To believe you just have to be persuaded it's true. It's not how much we believe that saves us, Christ Jesus saves us.

We have to believe that we have to believe and obey Jesus and not just the Father anymore.

 

[thborn]

To believe you just have to be persuaded it's true. It's not how much we believe that saves us, Christ Jesus saves us.

I agree, to this extent: I believe that what you describe can happen, might happen very often, and has probably happened in some instances in the Bible. The power of Jesus' Blood, of his sacrifice, is such that someone could be justified and born again, by, I suppose, a strong longing to believe that just barely crosses over into faith. Or by an initial belief in the basic circumstances of the Gospel. Or by someone who accepts the spirit of the Gospel without the full ability or maturity as yet to understand all of what they are hearing. After all, even those who just touched the fringe of Jesus' cloak were healed (Matthew 14:36). And Romans 4 (and Genesis, naturally) does make it sound like the righteousness God credited to Abraham was given at the point of Abraham believing in God's Plan (of course, we know that the faith and emotion Abraham felt behind that belief was particularly strong).

You also stated earlier that eternal life immediately follows belief. I belief this can and does happen. There are indeed a lot of verses that support this view. 2 Corinthians 6:1-2 makes for a good argument; Paul uses “hour” and “day” to describe it and quoted God’s Words there which also speak of “day.”

I love the idea that a flutter of faith has been used by God to save a person. I love the idea that a basic, not really caring acceptance of the Gospel has been used by God to save a person. I love the idea that in such instances people have been saved by Jesus immediately.

I still struggle, however, with the teaching that people are always saved in a manner of minutes or an hour and that it is easy to identity the moment when belief forms in a person (if that's indeed what you are saying). I still have so many burning questions! I appreciate any answers or thoughts you and others could add.

1. Why not accept a little mystery? Couldn't there be some disrespect for God in this? Or am I also denying mystery and am I being arrogant by picking apart situations and meanings of words?
2. I think we agree on 90% of things. Does this discussion have any further purpose, then? Should we be talking about justification any further? Are we thus on the same side? Or should we be talking to other people right now in greater need? Do you think I, as a matter of great spiritual urgency, need to agree with the idea that all people are always immediately saved after agreeing with some basic or partial form of the Gospel? (I understand that this is not your definition or necessarily your position). By that definition, though, I was saved some time ago.
3. Do you think that what you have stated is the argument that Paul makes comprehensively in his Epistles? Of course, I trust you hold all Holy Scripture in esteem.

BTW, I feel that I was a bit careless in one of my latest posts and I apologize to you. I should be careful not to imply anything about anyone's convictions on faith without knowing for sure what they believe.

 

[thborn]

Do you believe that a person has to confess too, and call on the Lord?

Argh! I'm on the spot again! But that's a good thing. It will help me grow...with the help of that wonderful supernatural being known as God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

When I read Romans and some of the other epistles I read verses that make me feel God is asking me to stick to the teaching of justification and eternal life after one's belief in the overall Gospel message. But, then I comes across those verses (and there's at least one in the epistles, I know) urging one to confess one's sins, and I feel that God is saying not to lead souls astray by ignoring confession. (Plus, I don't buy the argument Jesus' teachings are for the Jesus, and Jesus certainly gave instructions about forgiving sins and confessing sins. We must WANT Jesus, the Living Word, after all!) The think is it is beautiful to believe that ONLY Jesus saves us. I think we MUST believe this. And some people are perhaps saved immediately. But I also feel arrogant thinking that I know when I am saved. Maybe that is why we confess our sins. Because some of us are "being saved" as the episitles state in multiple places, and not all of us at least can know when we are saved. Those of us who are saved, as it does say in one of the epistles, show that they are saved by the good that they do. They do not save themselves in any way but might not necessarily know when they are saved. I sound like I am going mad. But I guess Paul sometimes thought he sounded like that, too....

I just got through understanding that one is justified at the time that one believes, and then I came across Galatians 6:7-8: Do not deceive yourselves. No one makes a fool of God. You will reap exactly what you plant. If you plant in the field of your natural desires, from it you will gather the harvest of death; if you plant in the field of the Spirit, from the Spirit you will gather the harvest of eternal life. (GNT)

As I said before: AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

 

[God's Truth]

Argh! I'm on the spot again! But that's a good thing. It will help me grow...with the help of that wonderful supernatural being known as God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That sounds great, thborn.

When I read Romans and some of the other epistles I read verses that make me feel God is asking me to stick to the teaching of justification and eternal life after one's belief in the overall Gospel message.

Would you mind considering carefully the chance that you were taught wrong about that, and that the only works we don't have to do are the purification works?

But, then I comes across those verses (and there's at least one in the epistles, I know) urging one to confess one's sins, and I feel that God is saying not to lead souls astray by ignoring confession. (Plus, I don't buy the argument Jesus' teachings are for the Jesus, and Jesus certainly gave instructions about forgiving sins and confessing sins.

It is so good to hear you say that.

We must WANT Jesus, the Living Word, after all!) The think is it is beautiful to believe that ONLY Jesus saves us. I think we MUST believe this.

Jesus saves us all on his own, and he tells us he saves those who obey him.

And some people are perhaps saved immediately.

Are you saying people are saved before believing that they have to want Jesus more than anyone or anything? Saved before they have to believe that they have to repent of their sins and live to obey him? Saved before having to believe that his blood washes away the sins we repent of doing and that he will give us the Holy Spirit to live in our heart?

But I also feel arrogant thinking that I know when I am saved.

Why would it be arrogant to know when you are saved?

Maybe that is why we confess our sins. Because some of us are "being saved" as the episitles state in multiple places, and not all of us at least can know when we are saved.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Those of us who are saved, as it does say in one of the epistles, show that they are saved by the good that they do. They do not save themselves in any way but might not necessarily know when they are saved. I sound like I am going mad. But I guess Paul sometimes thought he sounded like that, too....

I have a powerful testimony of when I was saved and just wanted to help others to know Jesus better; but much abuse to me for it.

I just got through understanding that one is justified at the time that one believes, and then I came across Galatians 6:7-8: Do not deceive yourselves. No one makes a fool of God. You will reap exactly what you plant. If you plant in the field of your natural desires, from it you will gather the harvest of death; if you plant in the field of the Spirit, from the Spirit you will gather the harvest of eternal life. (GNT)

As I said before: AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

I want to help you so much, and you seem like the perfect person for it.

 

[thborn]

Are you saying people are saved before believing that they have to want Jesus more than anyone or anything? Saved before they have to believe that they have to repent of their sins and live to obey him? Saved before having to believe that his blood washes away the sins we repent of doing and that he will give us the Holy Spirit to live in our heart?

I have to say that what you are saying here is a fairly good approach for a Christian to have and faithful to the overall Gospel message, to the depth that I have been allowed to understand it so far. And if God is outside of time, Jesus can indeed wash away all the sins of those God knows are being saved.

If I deemphasize the importance of confessing sins, I could lead someone away from belief and grace and thus away from eternal life. This is something that I used to believe, and I see now that I fell briefly into error, and I remembering how much the Gospels and Epistles speak about confessing sins and warning others.

I am grateful to everyone on this forum, though. At least recently, nobody has aggressively pushed me to ask myself what it means to be saved by Jesus' Blood, by grace, by faith, by believing. Subconciously I have always believed that that is what saves people....I felt saddened by non-Christians proclaiming that humans can save themselves. But now I am reminded that I must myself consciously and forever reject the idea that I am ever saving myself by things I do...and that in a real sense it is not me doing those things. It is grace. And I am only an unprofitable servant (Luke 17: 10).

Actually, in principal, I know of no existing major Christian tradition that believes that people save themselves by works. But I understand the need to suppress that perversion of the Gospel that can creep in and deny eternal life to many. I must, however, choose the Word of God over all else. Over strategies to fight false teachings, over the approval of people, even those who God counts among the saved.

If some people are saved immediately upon professing an initial belief as they understand it, that is beautiful. And if the workings of faith and belief take place over a much longer time for other people, a time of confession and an outpouring of grace, that too is beautiful. If some can point to a specific moment when they are saved, that is beautiful. If others don't see a single moment but could point to many moments of conversion, that is beautiful. If some don't know if they are forever saved but follow Jesus humbly...that could be seen as God's plan for many. I'm not in charge...it's as God wills it.

I have had a number of moments in my life where I read the Bible or heard some testimony and felt myself burning with a desire for God. Recently, when I lost a dearly beloved one, I also turned to God, in a different way. Were any of these the moment of salvation? I know that God knows that answer.

 

[God's Truth]

I have to say that what you are saying here is a fairly good approach for a Christian to have and faithful to the overall Gospel message, to the depth that I have been allowed to understand it so far. And if God is outside of time, Jesus can indeed wash away all the sins of those God knows are being saved.

So glad you agree.

If I deemphasize the importance of confessing sins, I could lead someone away from belief and grace and thus away from eternal life. This is something that I used to believe, and I see now that I fell briefly into error, and I remembering how much the Gospels and Epistles speak about confessing sins and warning others.

Exactly; there are many denominations that do not preach right about repenting of sins, and I believe those people never really give up any sins, and never really have a profound relationship with God. Or, they are ensnared to preach falseness as to hinder those who want to be saved.

I am grateful to everyone on this forum, though. At least recently, nobody has aggressively pushed me to ask myself what it means to be saved by Jesus' Blood, by grace, by faith, by believing. Subconciously I have always believed that that is what saves people....I felt saddened by non-Christians proclaiming that humans can save themselves. But now I am reminded that I must myself consciously and forever reject the idea that I am ever saving myself by things I do...and that in a real sense it is not me doing those things. It is grace. And I am only an unprofitable servant (Luke 17: 10).

Here is where some error seems to seep into your beliefs. Jesus tells us plainly to obey to remain in his love. So then, why say what you did since you know that?

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey my commandments.

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

"If you love me, you will obey my commandments.Actually, in principal, I know of no existing major Christian tradition that believes that people save themselves by works. But I understand the need to suppress that perversion of the Gospel that can creep in and deny eternal life to many. I must, however, choose the Word of God over all else. Over strategies to fight false teachings, over the approval of people, even those who God counts among the saved.

It is a strange thing that I have noticed with the 'faith alone' believers...they seem to be in turmoil about saying Jesus wants us to obey him and that we have to obey for salvation. It is never ever wrong to obey God, and our obedience definitely has to do with our salvation.

The Holy Spirit does not obey for us. It is us that has to do whatever we can to obey, and Jesus helps us when we call on him to help, when we call on him with a pure heart.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

God works in us by loving us. We want to please Him because of His love that is in us.

If some people are saved immediately upon professing an initial belief as they understand it, that is beautiful. And if the workings of faith and belief take place over a much longer time for other people, a time of confession and an outpouring of grace, that too is beautiful.

Jesus says we have to repent of our sins to get saved. Some people might get saved immediately because they repented of their sins immediately.

As for me, it took a long time for me to get saved because I was taught so many false doctrines and never was taught that repenting of sins means to stop doing them.

If some can point to a specific moment when they are saved, that is beautiful. If others don't see a single moment but could point to many moments of conversion, that is beautiful.

I don't understand about many moments of conversion. We are supposed to live through Jesus, not just sometimes.

If some don't know if they are forever saved but follow Jesus humbly...that could be seen as God's plan for many. I'm not in charge...it's as God wills it.

God tells us in the Bible what His will is, and nowhere does He say people shouldn't know if they are saved.

I have had a number of moments in my life where I read the Bible or heard some testimony and felt myself burning with a desire for God. Recently, when I lost a dearly beloved one, I also turned to God, in a different way. Were any of these the moment of salvation? I know that God knows that answer.

Well, I believe that salvation is a knowing you are saved. What kind of salvation is it if you don't know? That would be torture for me. If someone goes through times of wondering if they are no longer saved, then they just have to repent and keep looking forward and forgetting what is behind.

 

[beloved57]

Actually, to be Justified by Faith is when a person has been born again by the Spirit, then hears the good news of their Salvation/Justification conditioned soley on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ on the behalf of His People, and with the fruit of Faith given them in the new birth, believes on Christ for that finished work on their behalf !

 

[God's Truth]

Actually, to be Justified by Faith is when a person has been born again by the Spirit, then hears the good news of their Salvation/Justification conditioned soley on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ on the behalf of His People, and with the fruit of Faith given them in the new birth, believes on Christ for that finished work on their behalf !

No such thing as being justified by faith before a person hears the good news.

What are you having faith in if you never heard the good news in the first place?

 

[beloved57]

No such thing as being justified by faith before a person hears the good news.

What are you having faith in if you never heard the good news in the first place?

Did you read the post carefully ?

 

[God's Truth]

Did you read the post carefully ?

I sure did.