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ROMANS 1:6 CALLED TO BE SAINTS

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    What is the gospel of the kingdom?

    The good news of the coming of Messiah's kingdom.

    Matthew 24

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      The Apostle Paul revealed that beginning with the rapture all those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord Jesus forever (1 Thess.4:17). So when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to reign in His earthly kingdom those in the Body of Christ will be with Him.
      Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

      The Lord comes with his angels not the body of Christ.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by DougE View Post
        Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

        The Lord comes with his angels not the body of Christ.
        Where in the Bible are angels ever referred to as "saints"?:

        "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him"
        (Jude 14-15).

        You deny Paul's words that beginning at the rapture those in the Body of Christ will forever be with the Lord Jesus:
        "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

        Even though Paul states in no uncertain terms that beginning at the rapture those in the Body of Christ will "ever be with the Lord" you say that those in the Body of Christ will not be with the Lord Jesus when He returns to the earth to establish His earthly kingdom.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
          The good news of the coming of Messiah's kingdom.

          Matthew 24
          Bradley, please don't be a "chapter blaster". Don't just throw an entire chapter at me as if I know what you're trying to get at.

          The "Messiah's kingdom" will be a kingdom on the earth as detailed in numerous prophecies and writings of the prophets.

          The twelve were preaching this gospel of the kingdom to Israel and yet they did not even know that Christ had to die

          Luke 9:1-6 and Luke 18:31-34
          All of my ancestors are human.
          Originally posted by Squeaky
          That explains why your an idiot.
          Originally posted by God's Truth
          Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
          Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
          (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

          1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
          (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

          Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            Where in the Bible are angels ever referred to as "saints"?:

            "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him"
            (Jude 14-15).

            You deny Paul's words that beginning at the rapture those in the Body of Christ will forever be with the Lord Jesus:
            "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

            Even though Paul states in no uncertain terms that beginning at the rapture those in the Body of Christ will "ever be with the Lord" you say that those in the Body of Christ will not be with the Lord Jesus when He returns to the earth to establish His earthly kingdom.
            I understand how you would say I am denying Paul in regard to the "rapture" but let me assure you that is not the case.

            We would hopefully agree that there are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

            Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

            After the tribulation Christ will come to take the believing remnant of Israel into the kingdom on earth.

            Then we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ for rewards. Here we find these verses:

            1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

            4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

            4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            The saints, the body, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places.

            Here is another verse about the judgment seat, in which the saints (Believers) will be with Christ:
            1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

            Now, the body of Christ, I believe, will NOT come back with Jesus at his coming for Israel and the establishment of his kingdom.

            Look at Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

            Now look at Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

            Now look at Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

            7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

            Deuteronomy is speaking of the saints as being the angels who were mediators of the law.....saints are angels as well as believers.

            Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

            Matthew clearly states the angels will come with Christ to establish the earthly kingdom for believing Israel.

            One last point, Jude could not have prophesied anything about the body of Christ because it was hid in God and only revealed first to Paul.

            Let me say that I am not being dogmatic....this is what I see...there are others who say the body will return with Christ at his earthly return....I dont see that with scripture, but I am glad we could delve into it graciously.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DougE View Post
              The saints, the body, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places.
              So when the Lord returns to the earth to set up the kingdom those in the Body will remain in heaven? I can't see how you rationalize that idea with what Paul said here:
              "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

              The context speaks of meeting the Lord Jesus in the air and that has to refer to those in the Body of Christ being in His vicinity or in His proximity. Therefore, what follows--"so shall we ever be with the Lord"--must also refer to being in His vicinity or in His proximity, and Paul says that that is the way that it will be forever.

              That cannot be true if the Lord Jesus is going to be on the earth and those in the Body will remain in heaven.

              By the way, you made a good point about Deuteronomy 33:2. But that doesn't change the meaning of what Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
              Last edited by Jerry Shugart; October 13th, 2019, 04:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                So when the Lord returns to the earth to set up the kingdom those in the Body will remain in heaven? I can't see how you rationalize that idea with what Paul said here:
                "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

                The context speaks of meeting the Lord Jesus in the air and that has to refer to those in the Body of Christ being in His vicinity or in His proximity. Therefore, what follows--"so shall we ever be with the Lord"--must also refer to being in His vicinity or in His proximity, and Paul says that that is the way that it will be forever.

                That cannot be true if the Lord Jesus is going to be on the earth and those in the Body will remain in heaven.

                By the way, you made a good point about Deuteronomy 33:2. But that doesn't change the meaning of what Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
                I see your point and cannot explain everything unless I find a passage that does. All I can do is relay what I see from these passages. The body is caught up to heavenly places and when the Lord returns for Israel it is on earth.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by DougE View Post
                  I see your point and cannot explain everything unless I find a passage that does. All I can do is relay what I see from these passages. The body is caught up to heavenly places and when the Lord returns for Israel it is on earth.
                  There is evidence in the Hebrew epistles that those who were addressed were told that they too might be caught up to meet the Lord in the air while they remained alive and the Twelve will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes in the earthly kingdom.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    There is evidence in the Hebrew epistles that those who were addressed were told that they too might be caught up to meet the Lord in the air while they remained alive and the Twelve will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes in the earthly kingdom.

                    Do you have the verses in mind for the Hebrews being caught up?

                    The twelve will definitely sit on thrones judging Israel and the nations in the millennium (Matthew 19:28).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DougE View Post
                      Do you have the verses in mind for the Hebrews being caught up?
                      The Apostle John wrote the following to the Hebrew believers:
                      "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

                      Those who received John's epistles believed that they would be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

                      They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

                      There can be no doubt that John was teaching that living saints will put on glorious bodies like the Lord Jesus' body when He appears. The revelation concerning the return of the Lord Jesus according to prophecy will be searched in vain for any teaching that living saints will put on bodies like the Lord's when He returns to the earth because Paul made it plain that it is a mystery truth which only belongs to the Body of Christ:
                      "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).

                      Besides that, John also believed that the Lord's appearance was imminent and only His appearing at the rapture can be described as being imminent. When we look at the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse and the Apostle John's response we can understand that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could appear at any moment:

                      "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"
                      (Rev.22:12).

                      Here is what John said to the Lord Jesus about His words that "I come quickly":

                      "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus"
                      (Rev.22:20).

                      There can be no doubt that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could come at any moment so he believed that the appearance of the Lord was imminent.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        The Apostle John wrote the following to the Hebrew believers:
                        "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

                        Those who received John's epistles believed that they would be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

                        They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

                        There can be no doubt that John was teaching that living saints will put on glorious bodies like the Lord Jesus' body when He appears. The revelation concerning the return of the Lord Jesus according to prophecy will be searched in vain for any teaching that living saints will put on bodies like the Lord's when He returns to the earth because Paul made it plain that it is a mystery truth which only belongs to the Body of Christ:
                        "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).

                        Besides that, John also believed that the Lord's appearance was imminent and only His appearing at the rapture can be described as being imminent. When we look at the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse and the Apostle John's response we can understand that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could appear at any moment:

                        "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"
                        (Rev.22:12).

                        Here is what John said to the Lord Jesus about His words that "I come quickly":

                        "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus"
                        (Rev.22:20).

                        There can be no doubt that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could come at any moment so he believed that the appearance of the Lord was imminent.
                        1 John is written about the last days (Isaiah 2:2) when the Davidic kingdom is established at Christ's coming (1 John 2:18); this is the time frame 1 John 3:2 speaks of.

                        Peter is also written to the remnant of Israel in regard to the last days; in 1 Peter 1:7 Peter speaks of the Lord's coming for Israel to establish the Davidic kingdom on earth. Peter speaks of Israel's salvation being revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5)

                        The book of Revelation is all about Israel and the end times and his coming to fulfill prophecy for Israel and establish the kingdom and new heavens and earth.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DougE View Post
                          1 John is written about the last days (Isaiah 2:2) when the Davidic kingdom is established at Christ's coming (1 John 2:18); this is the time frame 1 John 3:2 speaks of.
                          Where did you ever get such a strange idea? That epistle was written during the time when the present dispensation was in effect and it was written to people living during the time period when the present dispensation was in effect.

                          But you say that what is written in that epistle applied to an entirely different dispensation.

                          During the Davidic Kingdom the law will once again be in effect. However, here is what we read in the book of Hebrews:
                          "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb.7:18-19).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            Where did you ever get such a strange idea? That epistle was written during the time when the present dispensation was in effect and it was written to people living during the time period when the present dispensation was in effect.
                            Your problem is that you believe that the Lord changed their calling. The Lord did NOT do that.
                            All of my ancestors are human.
                            Originally posted by Squeaky
                            That explains why your an idiot.
                            Originally posted by God's Truth
                            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                              Your problem is that you believe that the Lord changed their calling. The Lord did NOT do that.
                              Your problem is that you refuse to believe that their calling was heavenly, as witnessed by the author of the book of Hebrews:
                              "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).

                              Or perhaps you haven't read the book of Hebrews yet?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                                Your problem is that you refuse to believe that their calling was heavenly, as witnessed by the author of the book of Hebrews:
                                "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).

                                Or perhaps you haven't read the book of Hebrews yet?
                                Their calling was as TWELVE apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.

                                So go ahead and spin doctor it any way that you like.
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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