JOHN 20:23 IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH

[JudgeRightly]

God is absolutely immutable. Why would you say different? Was Jesus God as a man? God is God. You don't believe in His absolute immutability or His total omniscience. What else don't you believe?

In other words, adherence to the immutability of God trumps your belief in the incarnation of God the Son.

Thank you for being honest, Bright Raven.

 

[Bright Raven]

You're trying to put words in my mouth. I believe in the incarnation as any Christian does but that does not say that God changed when He became man. Do you believe that God changes?

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're trying to put words in my mouth. I believe in the incarnation as any Christian does but that does not say that God changed when He became man. Do you believe that God changes?

I'm not putting words into your mouth.

Please explain how Jesus, God the Son, BECOMING a man is not a change.

 

[Bright Raven]

I'm not putting words into your mouth.

Please explain how Jesus, God the Son, BECOMING a man is not a change.

I already explained it but will say it again. When Jesus became a man was God still God

 

[JudgeRightly]

I already explained it but will say it again. When Jesus became a man was God still God

Is Jesus God? Yes? Then God became something other than what He had always been.

That. Is. A. Change.

 

[Bright Raven]

Explain the following;

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Explain the following;

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

And there's the dodge.

BR, if you cannot explain how God becoming a man is not a change, yet still adhere to absolute immutability in the face of Him doing so, how do you expect to be able to understand when God says He does not change?

 

[Bright Raven]

And there's the dodge.

BR, if you cannot explain how God becoming a man is not a change, yet still adhere to absolute immutability in the face of Him doing so, how do you expect to be able to understand when God says He does not change?

I'm not going to go any further with this. God is unchanging and it is clearly taught in the Bible. If you don't want to believe it that is a choice you make and its fine with me.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm not going to go any further with this.

Of course you won't, because going further will destroy your position.

God is unchanging and it is clearly taught in the Bible. If you don't want to believe it that is a choice you make and its fine with me.

Of course it teaches that God is unchanging... But not absolutely!

You think that because the Bible says that God doesn't change that it means "in every way!"

But if God DOES NOT CHANGE EVER, then God could not have become a man, because THAT is a change. Period.

But God DOES change, and THAT is ALSO taught in the Bible.

 

[Bright Raven]

Of course you won't, because going further will destroy your position.



Of course it teaches that God is unchanging... But not absolutely!

You think that because the Bible says that God doesn't change that it means "in every way!"

But if God DOES NOT CHANGE EVER, then God could not have become a man, because THAT is a change. Period.

But God DOES change, and THAT is ALSO taught in the Bible.

Where in the Bible does God say that He changes?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Where in the Bible does God say that He changes?

The incarnation, for starters.

God the Son, who for eternity past did not have a physical body, became a man.

 

[Bright Raven]

The incarnation, for starters.

God the Son, who for eternity past did not have a physical body, became a man.

That's a joke. :ha: It has already been explained. Try again!

 

[JudgeRightly]

That's a joke.

No one is laughing.

:ha: It has already been explained. Try again!

No, BR, it hasn't. The entire thread is still there for all to see.

All you've done is evade the challenge.

The challenge is to explain why God becoming a man is not a change.

Since it is a change, you cannot. And since you cannot, it destroys the idea that God does not change, because to the extent God became a man, God did, in fact, change. Which means you need to either deny the incarnation, or give up the belief that God does no change.

If I were you, BR, I would do the latter.

Spoiler

He doesn't change period.

So Jesus did not become a man?

Was He God as a man?

Was Jesus God the Son, BR? Or was He some 4th person of the Trinity?

Are you serious???

Answer the question, BR.

Did Jesus, God the Son, become a man?

I cannot believe you're asking these silly questions. But to appease your lack of knowledge yes God the Son became a man. Did He become any less God when He became man?

So then, would you retract this:Because, to the extent that God the Son became a man, He changed?

Nope! Because I believe it.

You believe two things that contradict.

Either "God does not change, period," or God changed, at least to the extent that God the Son became a man."

So which is more important to you, BR? God's absolute immutability? Or the Incarnation?

God is absolutely immutable. Why would you say different? Was Jesus God as a man? God is God. You don't believe in His absolute immutability or His total omniscience. What else don't you believe?

In other words, adherence to the immutability of God trumps your belief in the incarnation of God the Son.

Thank you for being honest, Bright Raven.

You're trying to put words in my mouth. I believe in the incarnation as any Christian does but that does not say that God changed when He became man. Do you believe that God changes?

I'm not putting words into your mouth.

Please explain how Jesus, God the Son, BECOMING a man is not a change.

I already explained it but will say it again. When Jesus became a man was God still God

Is Jesus God? Yes? Then God became something other than what He had always been.

That. Is. A. Change.

Explain the following;

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

And there's the dodge.

BR, if you cannot explain how God becoming a man is not a change, yet still adhere to absolute immutability in the face of Him doing so, how do you expect to be able to understand when God says He does not change?

I'm not going to go any further with this. God is unchanging and it is clearly taught in the Bible. If you don't want to believe it that is a choice you make and its fine with me.

Of course you won't, because going further will destroy your position.



Of course it teaches that God is unchanging... But not absolutely!

You think that because the Bible says that God doesn't change that it means "in every way!"

But if God DOES NOT CHANGE EVER, then God could not have become a man, because THAT is a change. Period.

But God DOES change, and THAT is ALSO taught in the Bible.

Where in the Bible does God say that He changes?

The incarnation, for starters.

God the Son, who for eternity past did not have a physical body, became a man.

BR, why do you deny that God changed when He became a man?

 

[Tambora]

I believe the "change" spoken of is one's innate being.
One can make changes to their form but it does not change their innate being.
For instance: Man can change his heart by have a pig heart transplant, but is still innately man.
So GOD can change HIS form but does not change HIS innate being.

 

[Cntrysner]

I believe the "change" spoken of is one's innate being.
One can make changes to their form but it does not change their innate being.
For instance: Man can change his heart by have a pig heart transplant, but is still innately man.
So GOD can change HIS form but does not change HIS innate being.

God did change innately...

Definition of innate. 1 : existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn innate behavior. 2 : belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent. 3 : originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience.

God innately changed through His Son when He was born of the flesh.

The conundrum goes away by the understanding that God is a Spirit (heart) never changing in that aspect but did change innately concerning the flesh to become by nature a man.

If God did not change in such a way then neither can we be changed through His Son.

 

[Tambora]

God did change innately...

Definition of innate. 1 : existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn innate behavior. 2 : belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent. 3 : originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience.

God innately changed through His Son when He was born of the flesh.

The conundrum goes away by the understanding that God is a Spirit (heart) never changing in that aspect but did change innately concerning the flesh to become by nature a man.

If God did not change in such a way then neither can we be changed through His Son.

The word has a wide range of meaning, so I hope others got the gist of my post.
GOD was not "born", so according to the narrow definition GOD would not be innate at all.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I believe the "change" spoken of is one's innate being.
One can make changes to their form but it does not change their innate being.
For instance: Man can change his heart by have a pig heart transplant, but is still innately man.
So GOD can change HIS form but does not change HIS innate being.

Tam, I asked BR a very specific question:

In what way or ways does Jesus not change?

This was his answer:

He doesn't change period.

Did Jesus (God the Son) change by becoming a man? Yes or no.

 

[genuineoriginal]

John is the Word of God and the last thing we should do is discard it....It has to be rightly divided and understood.

The phrase "rightly divided" in dispensational churches means "it isn't relevant, so ignore it"

 

[genuineoriginal]

The RISEN and ASCENDED Lord Jesus Christ, but NOT Christ as the minister of the circumcision as Christ was when He came to His people Israel. Rom 15:8

And that is what you believe when you wrongly divide the scriptures.

 

[Right Divider]

And that is what you believe when you wrongly divide the scriptures.

Another silly post. Let us know when you have something intelligent to say.