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JOHN 20:23 IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    God is absolutely immutable. Why would you say different? Was Jesus God as a man? God is God. You don't believe in His absolute immutability or His total omniscience. What else don't you believe?
    In other words, adherence to the immutability of God trumps your belief in the incarnation of God the Son.

    Thank you for being honest, Bright Raven.

    Comment


    • #62
      You're trying to put words in my mouth. I believe in the incarnation as any Christian does but that does not say that God changed when He became man. Do you believe that God changes?
      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

      Jim Elliot

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
        You're trying to put words in my mouth. I believe in the incarnation as any Christian does but that does not say that God changed when He became man. Do you believe that God changes?
        I'm not putting words into your mouth.

        Please explain how Jesus, God the Son, BECOMING a man is not a change.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          I'm not putting words into your mouth.

          Please explain how Jesus, God the Son, BECOMING a man is not a change.
          I already explained it but will say it again. When Jesus became a man was God still God
          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

          Jim Elliot

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
            I already explained it but will say it again. When Jesus became a man was God still God
            Is Jesus God? Yes? Then God became something other than what He had always been.

            That. Is. A. Change.

            Comment


            • #66
              Explain the following;

              Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
              6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
              He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

              Jim Elliot

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                Explain the following;

                Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
                6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
                And there's the dodge.

                BR, if you cannot explain how God becoming a man is not a change, yet still adhere to absolute immutability in the face of Him doing so, how do you expect to be able to understand when God says He does not change?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                  And there's the dodge.

                  BR, if you cannot explain how God becoming a man is not a change, yet still adhere to absolute immutability in the face of Him doing so, how do you expect to be able to understand when God says He does not change?
                  I'm not going to go any further with this. God is unchanging and it is clearly taught in the Bible. If you don't want to believe it that is a choice you make and its fine with me.
                  He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                  Jim Elliot

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                    I'm not going to go any further with this.
                    Of course you won't, because going further will destroy your position.

                    God is unchanging and it is clearly taught in the Bible. If you don't want to believe it that is a choice you make and its fine with me.
                    Of course it teaches that God is unchanging... But not absolutely!

                    You think that because the Bible says that God doesn't change that it means "in every way!"

                    But if God DOES NOT CHANGE EVER, then God could not have become a man, because THAT is a change. Period.

                    But God DOES change, and THAT is ALSO taught in the Bible.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      Of course you won't, because going further will destroy your position.



                      Of course it teaches that God is unchanging... But not absolutely!

                      You think that because the Bible says that God doesn't change that it means "in every way!"

                      But if God DOES NOT CHANGE EVER, then God could not have become a man, because THAT is a change. Period.

                      But God DOES change, and THAT is ALSO taught in the Bible.
                      Where in the Bible does God say that He changes?
                      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                      Jim Elliot

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                        Where in the Bible does God say that He changes?
                        The incarnation, for starters.

                        God the Son, who for eternity past did not have a physical body, became a man.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          The incarnation, for starters.

                          God the Son, who for eternity past did not have a physical body, became a man.
                          That's a joke. It has already been explained. Try again!
                          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                          Jim Elliot

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            That's a joke.
                            No one is laughing.

                            It has already been explained. Try again!
                            No, BR, it hasn't. The entire thread is still there for all to see.

                            All you've done is evade the challenge.

                            The challenge is to explain why God becoming a man is not a change.

                            Since it is a change, you cannot. And since you cannot, it destroys the idea that God does not change, because to the extent God became a man, God did, in fact, change. Which means you need to either deny the incarnation, or give up the belief that God does no change.

                            If I were you, BR, I would do the latter.

                            Spoiler
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            He doesn't change period.
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            So Jesus did not become a man?
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            Was He God as a man?
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Was Jesus God the Son, BR? Or was He some 4th person of the Trinity?
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            Are you serious???
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Answer the question, BR.

                            Did Jesus, God the Son, become a man?
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            I cannot believe you're asking these silly questions. But to appease your lack of knowledge yes God the Son became a man. Did He become any less God when He became man?
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            So then, would you retract this:Because, to the extent that God the Son became a man, He changed?
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            Nope! Because I believe it.
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            You believe two things that contradict.

                            Either "God does not change, period," or God changed, at least to the extent that God the Son became a man."

                            So which is more important to you, BR? God's absolute immutability? Or the Incarnation?


                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            God is absolutely immutable. Why would you say different? Was Jesus God as a man? God is God. You don't believe in His absolute immutability or His total omniscience. What else don't you believe?


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            In other words, adherence to the immutability of God trumps your belief in the incarnation of God the Son.

                            Thank you for being honest, Bright Raven.


                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            You're trying to put words in my mouth. I believe in the incarnation as any Christian does but that does not say that God changed when He became man. Do you believe that God changes?


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            I'm not putting words into your mouth.

                            Please explain how Jesus, God the Son, BECOMING a man is not a change.


                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            I already explained it but will say it again. When Jesus became a man was God still God


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Is Jesus God? Yes? Then God became something other than what He had always been.

                            That. Is. A. Change.


                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            Explain the following;

                            Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
                            6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            And there's the dodge.

                            BR, if you cannot explain how God becoming a man is not a change, yet still adhere to absolute immutability in the face of Him doing so, how do you expect to be able to understand when God says He does not change?


                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            I'm not going to go any further with this. God is unchanging and it is clearly taught in the Bible. If you don't want to believe it that is a choice you make and its fine with me.


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Of course you won't, because going further will destroy your position.



                            Of course it teaches that God is unchanging... But not absolutely!

                            You think that because the Bible says that God doesn't change that it means "in every way!"

                            But if God DOES NOT CHANGE EVER, then God could not have become a man, because THAT is a change. Period.

                            But God DOES change, and THAT is ALSO taught in the Bible.


                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            Where in the Bible does God say that He changes?


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            The incarnation, for starters.

                            God the Son, who for eternity past did not have a physical body, became a man.


                            BR, why do you deny that God changed when He became a man?
                            Last edited by JudgeRightly; September 29th, 2019, 06:50 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I believe the "change" spoken of is one's innate being.
                              One can make changes to their form but it does not change their innate being.
                              For instance: Man can change his heart by have a pig heart transplant, but is still innately man.
                              So GOD can change HIS form but does not change HIS innate being.

                              We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                              They already know monsters exist.
                              We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                                I believe the "change" spoken of is one's innate being.
                                One can make changes to their form but it does not change their innate being.
                                For instance: Man can change his heart by have a pig heart transplant, but is still innately man.
                                So GOD can change HIS form but does not change HIS innate being.
                                God did change innately...

                                Definition of innate. 1 : existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn innate behavior. 2 : belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent. 3 : originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience.

                                God innately changed through His Son when He was born of the flesh.

                                The conundrum goes away by the understanding that God is a Spirit (heart) never changing in that aspect but did change innately concerning the flesh to become by nature a man.

                                If God did not change in such a way then neither can we be changed through His Son.

                                Comment

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