genuineoriginal
New member
I don't understand your point.
Are you claiming that people that believe the "gospel of grace" is not about the kingdom are unforgivable and thus cannot enter the kingdom?
Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Are you claiming that people that believe the "gospel of grace" is not about the kingdom are unforgivable and thus cannot enter the kingdom?
Right Divider
Body part
The gospel of the kingdom did NOT require preaching that Christ died for our sins.
The gospel of the grace of God is ALL ABOUT Christ dying for our sins.
The gospel of the grace of God is ALL ABOUT Christ dying for our sins.
God's grace is from the beginning and through all dispensations even to the end of the world. All saved is by God's grace. We draw near to God whether by faith or works, it's from faith to faith, there is no difference concerning grace..
Right Divider
Body part
Are you also a Bible blender?
There is no record in scripture of the Lord Jesus Christ uttering the word "grace" during His entire earthly ministry. Why is that?
Secondly, the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel were traveling Israel and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and YET they did not even know that Christ had to die.
These simple facts are almost universally ignored by Churchianity.
I understand what you are saying but will you tell me how those before the cross and before Paul were saved without God's grace?
Right Divider
Body part
First... tell me that you understand what I said.
Kingdoms are heaven and earth. God's grace is from beginning to end. There is a difference dispensationally that can't be denied concerning remission of sins. The gospel is not really apostolic clear cut dispensations as proven by the contentions for example that Paul and Peter had but it is revealed progressively. No one before Paul stated that Christ died for our sins.
Those before the cross were saved by apostolic gospel but not sealed.
Christ descended to the dead that died before the cross to reveal His message of remission by His blood and those believers that were alive during the progressive revelation of remission of sin by the death of Christ had to endure in faith until the revelations of the gospel of the cross of Christ revealed by Christ through Paul. So, no one is left out or condemned but by the cross for remission.
I think it was displayed with Adam, Abraham, David, etc. Their salvation was by drawing near to God not by their effort. By what means then were they saved?
They were still saved by believing in the gospel preached of the kingdom. How is that not by God's grace?
I think I know your terminology in that statement and I agree but God's grace as he works with man is no different fundamentally though built on a different foundation revealed by Paul.
So, will you tell me how they before the cross were saved without grace?
You need to prove that Peter understood that testament of Christ and then prove Peter believed it.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter did not deliver the message of the new testament for remission at Pentecost but he preached the message of John the baptist...
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Edit: Peter at Pentecost and John's baptism were in water for remission and had no blood in it. No reference to the death of Christ for remission.
Christ Jesus said:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Amazing that Christ's message of His blood wasn't clearly stated at Pentecost being it was the most important message ever delivered by Christ.
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Greetings again popsthebuilder1,
I would be interested in how you understand Jesus’ statement that his baptism in water would be part of fulfilling all righteousness.
Matthew 3:13–15 (KJV): 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes I was speaking about baptism in water.
I would be interested in how you understand Jesus’ statement that his baptism in water would be part of fulfilling all righteousness.
Matthew 3:13–15 (KJV): 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Kind regards
Trevor
popsthebuilder1
New member
Good question. It is said that the forerunner was to straighten the ways of the lord. So perhaps it has to do with fulfilling prophesy and symbolism. An outward sign. Or maybe it has to do with death and emptying or washing away of self allowing room for the things of GOD within ones own heart.
You think the two are linked? Like water baptism is symbolic of being baptised in fire or given the Holy Spirit of GOD?
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ttruscott
Well-known member
YOU QUOTED???
You did not quote me - you made a reference only to two statements I made and included a quote that I DID NOT MAKE!
I in fact wrote the following THREE statements which is why I was not sure it your were referencing that post or another:
1. The details of salvation, the fulfillment of the election promise to be conformed to the Son, are HIS worry and work, not ours.
2. IF we are elect, our salvation will go apace and HE will direct us into all that is necessary, irresistibly.
3. If you are not elect, no ritual nor intellectual belief can help you escape your chosen fate.
IN NONE OF WHICH DO I WRITE THE WORDS: it is all the doing of GOD alone...these are your words and not my quote or saying. I don't trust a careless attitude. If you ask a coherent question about a sentence I have written, I will answer but I do not answer to made up words put into my mouth.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I meant: the gospel of grace does not cover the unforgivable in answer to your sentence: if the "gospel of grace" you follow will keep people out of the kingdom...
YES the gospel of grace does keep some out of the kingdom, the unforgivable.
Greetings again popsthebuilder1,
I would be interested in how you understand Jesus’ statement that his baptism in water would be part of fulfilling all righteousness.
Matthew 3:13–15 (KJV): 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Isaiah 40:6–8 (KJV): 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Jesus uniquely combines these two elements, he is flesh and mortal, subject to death, and yet he was the Word made flesh, and thus through the love, mercy and righteousness of God the grave could not hold him. Jesus is acknowledging that he also is flesh and subject to death and because of the Divine sentence upon ALL of Adam’s descendants he was willing to subject himself to the anticipated death upon the cross, knowing that in the love and mercy of God the Father he would be raised again. The sentence upon Adam and his descendants that they would return to the dust was halted and Jesus saw no corruption and was raised from the dead in three days.
He knew by this means the righteousness of God would be fulfilled and declared in his sacrifice for sins:
Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Thus Jesus in submitting to the water baptism of John was looking forward to his own death and resurrection, while we, when we are baptised in water unite with Jesus in his death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. Yes, an affectionate faith in the One True Gospel and baptism by water is the appointed means of salvation.
Kind regards
Trevor
I would be interested in how you understand Jesus’ statement that his baptism in water would be part of fulfilling all righteousness.
Matthew 3:13–15 (KJV): 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
I suggest that Jesus was establishing the true meaning of water baptism. He was prefiguring his own death and resurrection in response to the teaching of John the Baptist:
Isaiah 40:6–8 (KJV): 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Jesus uniquely combines these two elements, he is flesh and mortal, subject to death, and yet he was the Word made flesh, and thus through the love, mercy and righteousness of God the grave could not hold him. Jesus is acknowledging that he also is flesh and subject to death and because of the Divine sentence upon ALL of Adam’s descendants he was willing to subject himself to the anticipated death upon the cross, knowing that in the love and mercy of God the Father he would be raised again. The sentence upon Adam and his descendants that they would return to the dust was halted and Jesus saw no corruption and was raised from the dead in three days.
He knew by this means the righteousness of God would be fulfilled and declared in his sacrifice for sins:
Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Thus Jesus in submitting to the water baptism of John was looking forward to his own death and resurrection, while we, when we are baptised in water unite with Jesus in his death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. Yes, an affectionate faith in the One True Gospel and baptism by water is the appointed means of salvation.
Kind regards
Trevor
genuineoriginal
New member
If that is what you were taught (doctrines of men), it is no wonder you are so confused.
You should learn from Paul the Apostle, who spent a lot of time preaching about the kingdom.
Acts 28:23 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. |
genuineoriginal
New member
The Jews already knew that God's mercy was the way to salvation.
Psalm 13:5 5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. |
The Gentiles did not even know God.
Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. |
genuineoriginal
New member
True.
No, there is no difference dispensationally.
Any perceived difference comes from misunderstanding Paul's words.
Jesus said it.
Matthew 26:28 28 [JESUS]For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[/JESUS] |
genuineoriginal
New member
You may think it was the most important message, but from the Biblical record, Jesus did not consider it the most important message.
What Jesus apparently considered to be the most important message is the same message that is called the "everlasting gospel":
Revelation 14:6-7 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. |
So, who is more likely to be wrong, Peter or us?
Peter was taught by Jesus Himself and was filled with the Holy Spirit.
We are taught an interpretation of the Bible, and the interpretations we are taught have changed many many times over the last 2,000 years.
popsthebuilder1
New member
Three statements. I stand corrected.
And if I quoted someone else then that would be another mistake I made.
The fact stands that if it is the fulfilment of the election is the work of Christ then it is not yours. If you are chosen then you didn't choose. If irresistible then there is no choice being made and no optional course of action.
Yet in your final statement you quite plainly say that the unbeliever chooses their own damned fate...if you cannot arrive at logical conclusions to your own standings then why laud them at all?
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