Was the fall necessary ?

[Nang]

The verses are there in scripture about choice. It is not by will, it is merely choice. Will implies on your part something that you must do for your will to be true. Forget about what one must do and think about choice. Choice does not require your will, you're just accepting the will of another, you don't have to perform anything.



God's will is not based on you performing, it's just choice. that's how easy it is.



That's where you missed it, you don't have to live according to God's will, all you do is choose how Christ lived according to God's will for us. It is that easy yet because it's that simple it's hard to understand.

Never say that anyone living is (will be) condemned because God is not finished until they are dead.

People remaining in unbelief and denial of the Gospel, are condemned by God already.

John 3:18

 

[ttruscott]

Have you ever thought that in order for evil, the devil, death and hell to be destroyed it was necessary God manifest them?

Of course but I came to reject that they are HIS manifestation (creation) when ALL HE did was ALLOW them to manifest / create evil by the free will of HIS creation. LOVE DOES NOT MANIFEST EVIL AND SUFFERING AMONG ITS LOVED ONES. PERIOD.

Just as righteousness was forever established in the manifestation of Jesus Christ, perhaps the same was required to destroy the opposite.

Righteousness was established in eternity past for all history by HIS character absolutes, HIS very nature! Christ only manifested them on earth BECAUSE some of the elect chose to be sinful, forcing the postponement of the judgment and needing the promise of election to be fulfilled by His death.

IF no one sinned ever; no need for this earth of suffering at all - straight to heaven for all of us.
IF no elect sinned, then no need for Christ to die as the judgment would have been called and over in an instant, the elect going straight to heaven.

 

[Cntrysner]

Don't get the cart before the horse.

One can say I was saved by my free will but in reality you weren't. You were saved by God's will in Christ and there is no other way. I am angry at how theological terminologies confuse clear definition of words.

If you are saved, you can never say you are saved by your will because will belongs to God.

Say this first, I was saved by God's will in Christ. I mean in Christ because only Christ was able to perform God's will. All you did was claim His will.

If you tell a seeker of salvation that they can be saved by their free will you conveyed a misunderstanding of proper order and could be a stumbling block.

We are saved by the will of God through the ability of Christ to complete it. Also for proper order, we are not saved by our faith, if you think so you will sink beneath the waves of the righteousness one. We can only be saved eternally by the faith of Christ. All we can do initially is choose the will of God through the faith of Christ and the faith and the will will be given to you.

 

[ttruscott]

Why did God create the world?

Please consider that the whole Bible story culminates in the marriage of the Lamb AFTER this reality is cleansed from all evil. The cleansing cannot be the purpose because another agenda followed it. The last agenda written about in the book of the history of GOD and Man is the wedding to HIM of the Holy and Righteous Church.

That is why many people have come to believe that this unity of a fellowship of love and harmony called the true marriage WAS HIS ULTIMATE PURPOSE FOR OUR CREATION.

So GOD created people to be HIS Bride but we are to believe that:
1. Before our creation HE chose some for no reason to be HIS bride and created others in their innocence NOT to be HIS Bride.
2. Then HE created us ALL evil in Adam, Bride and non-bride, bringing evil and suffering to everyone in the world.
3. EVERYONE HE chose to be HIS BRIDE HE creates as evil in Adam to a life of suffering even though HE hates evil and cannot abide it.

...and we are to believe this all makes cosmic sense somehow (not comic sense) because HE IS WHO HE IS and can do ANYTHING THAT COMES TO HIS MIND...but it is never answered WHY would the GOD who IS love, do this to HIS Bride when to do it to HIS eternal enemies for no reason is bad enough???

 

[Clete]

My challenge was: "Quote me one Scripture that uses the words "choose" or "choice" or "free" that pertain to men willfully finding salvation and eternal life in Jesus Christ."

Is it your Cavlinist opinion that salvation was ever acheived in any some way other than in Jesus Christ?

There was someone around here who started a thread about the five Calvinist sola doctrines, one of which was Sola Christus if I recall.

Any idea who that was?

Not one of these verses pertains to, nor reveals any success of souls obtaining salvation and resurrected life in Christ.

I simply love that I somehow managed to get a Calvinist to actually state this outloud and in public!

Calvinist are so delusional that they cannot read and think that none of us can either!

They are commands from God for men to live according to the will of God, but in all cases, even the events recorded in Joshua, failed to achieve the goal. See Judges 9:1-21 for the results of the supposed compliance of the men of Shechem. They failed the command.

Are you saying that Joshua went to Hell?

These passages simply reveal the responsibility of all persons to live according to the will of God, but no soul is able or willing to choose to do so. These verses universally condemn the human race.

I just quoted 9 different passages that specifically state that we are able to choose and could have quoted more, not the least of which is...

Joshua 24:22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him.”​

It is your doctrine that teaches that no soul is able or willing to do so, not the bible! The bible not only repeatedly commands us to choose but specifically states that people did, in fact, choose and that their own witness will serve as testimony against them should they go against that choice. The fact that they did go against it is no evidence that the choice wasn't made. That's just your doctrine speaking in direct contradiction to what the scripture plainly and undeniably states.


There was someone around here who started a thread about the five Calvinist sola doctrines, one of which was Sola Scriptura if I recall.

Any idea who that was?


Further, when not restricted to the use of three specific words, there are lots of other passages from which to choose. Here's just one that any sane person could not deny but that you certainly will...

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Clete

 

[beloved57]

Amen Brother !

The Fall was necessary, for in God's Eternal Purpose, sin was to come into the world through Adam.

For Christ Jesus, in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb. 13:20, was already set up as Surety / Saviour Heb. 7:22 of all His Sheep John 10:11 / Church Eph. 5:25, as the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8b.

So God's Eternal Purpose Eph. 3:9-11 was already set in motion for the Salvation of His Elect including Gentiles; men from all nations Ps. 72:17, because they were already, in the Mind and Purpose of God, Eternally Justified.

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law [jew], but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham [Gentile]; who is the father of us all,

Rom. 3:24 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

Rom. 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Now it's only by the Spirit of God, given in New Birth, that any can come to see [know, acknowledge, or perceive] these Glorious and Precious Truths John 3:3 !

Thank God for you, very edifying !

 

[beloved57]

Was the fall necessary ?


OR RATHER: Did HE propose that everyone could choose to accept or reject HIS marriage proposal by their free will, then created the earth as the prison planet for all sinners with a rehab centre for elect sinners and Adam was the first sinner to come into this system?


Your interpretation makes GOD go against every attribute HE has revealed HIMself to have: sin and evil are contrary to love, righteousness and justice to name HIS three main attributes and just like light destroys darkness just by its nature, so does HIS nature as loving righteous justice destroy evil just by being inexistence so, how can HIS Light and HIS love create evil? Since all sin can be accounted for by other means such as by the free will decison of HIS creation, why does anyone feel the need to blaspheme his goodness with any idea HE creates evi or needs it in any way?


GOD does not NEED evil for any reason, and HIS whole nature desires to destroy it so it is anathema to think that HE purposed evil because HE does need it and cannot have created a perfect marriage in heaven without it. My goodness...

What you be reading ? It sure doesn't sound like the scripture.

 

[beloved57]

ttruscott

Your interpretation makes GOD go against every attribute HE has revealed HIMself to have: sin and evil are contrary to love, righteousness and justice to name HIS three main attributes

And yet because of the Fall of man God has been pleased to reveal His Love to His People Jn 3:16, Rom 5:8 , 1 Jn 4:8-10

[FONT=&quot]8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Look at Vs 9 because of the fall the best was that men lived through Adam, that is naturally, but through Christ men live Spiritually and Eternally, so which one shows the greatness of Gods Love ?[/FONT]

 

[Nang]

Is it your Cavlinist opinion that salvation was ever acheived in any some way other than in Jesus Christ?

There was someone around here who started a thread about the five Calvinist sola doctrines, one of which was Sola Christus if I recall.

Any idea who that was?


I simply love that I somehow managed to get a Calvinist to actually state this outloud and in public!

Calvinist are so delusional that they cannot read and think that none of us can either!


Are you saying that Joshua went to Hell?



I just quoted 9 different passages that specifically state that we are able to choose and could have quoted more, not the least of which is...

Joshua 24:22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him.”​

It is your doctrine that teaches that no soul is able or willing to do so, not the bible! The bible not only repeatedly commands us to choose but specifically states that people did, in fact, choose and that their own witness will serve as testimony against them should they go against that choice. The fact that they did go against it is no evidence that the choice wasn't made. That's just your doctrine speaking in direct contradiction to what the scripture plainly and undeniably states.


There was someone around here who started a thread about the five Calvinist sola doctrines, one of which was Sola Scriptura if I recall.

Any idea who that was?


Further, when not restricted to the use of three specific words, there are lots of other passages from which to choose. Here's just one that any sane person could not deny but that your certainly will...

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Clete

I predict that within days, Clete will claim he has destroyed my witness and Calvinism in general with this genius post.

NOT . . .:crackup:

 

[JudgeRightly]

I predict that within days, Clete will claim he has destroyed my witness and Calvinism in general with this genius post.

NOT . . .:crackup:

So then respond to it and show he's wrong, rather than just claiming you're right by default.

 

[Nanja]

ttruscott



And yet because of the Fall of man God has been pleased to reveal His Love to His People Jn 3:16, Rom 5:8 , 1 Jn 4:8-10

[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]8 [/B][/FONT]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.[/FONT]
[FONT="][B][FONT=Arial][B]10 [/B][/FONT]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.[/B]

Look at Vs 9 because of the fall the best was that men lived through Adam, that is naturally, but through Christ men live Spiritually and Eternally, so which one shows the greatness of Gods Love ?[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]



[COLOR="#006400"]Spiritually and Eternally, indisputably !

 

[beloved57]

ttruscott



And yet because of the Fall of man God has been pleased to reveal His Love to His People Jn 3:16, Rom 5:8 , 1 Jn 4:8-10

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Look at Vs 9 because of the fall the best was that men lived through Adam, that is naturally, but through Christ men live Spiritually and Eternally, so which one shows the greatness of Gods Love ?

And again through means of the fall which brought in sin, the Righteousness of God is revealed in the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Clete]

I predict that within days, Clete will claim he has destroyed my witness and Calvinism in general with this genius post.

NOT . . .:crackup:

I predict that Nang will not answer any of the questions I asked nor offer anything that resembles a counter argument or rebuttal.

 

[Nang]

I predict that Nang will not answer any of the questions I asked nor offer anything that resembles a counter argument or rebuttal.

You fail to answer my challenge:

My challenge was: "Quote me one Scripture that uses the words "choose" or "choice" or "free" that pertain to men willfully finding salvation and eternal life in Jesus Christ."

Instead, you consider your posting various instances of men making choices to be the same as dead sinners being able to choose to believe unto salvation.

I do not think you even grasp the importance of MY question. I think you are blinded to it and apparantly have not been enable to see it when presented from other Reformers for 20 years.

Very sad . . .

The wickedness of Satan was his denial of God's sovereign rule, understanding the importance of God's creation of Adam, and the subsequent twisting of truth to the point of usurping both God and man, and your tactics seem to be similar.

:carryon:

 

[beloved57]

And again through means of the fall which brought in sin, the Righteousness of God is revealed in the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And one more time, by means of the Fall into sin, Gods Justice is made manifested Rom 3:26

[FONT=&quot]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be [/FONT]just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ps 85:10

[FONT=&quot]Mercy and truth are met together; [/FONT]righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

 

[Nanja]

And one more time, by means of the Fall into sin, Gods Justice is made manifested Rom 3:26

[FONT="]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: [U][B]that he might be [/B][/U][/FONT][/COLOR][B][U][B]just[/B][/U], and the [B]justifier of him which believeth in [B]Jesus.[/B][/B][/B]

Ps 85:10

[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]Mercy and truth are met together; [/FONT]righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

Amen Brother ! Even before the Fall, Adam's righteousness was far below God's standard of Righteousness which would only come through The God / Man Mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ, for His Church [God's Elect], those He Lived and Died for as their Surety Heb. 7:22.

Rom. 5:17, 19

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [Justified] Rom. 3:26.


So Christ, who is the Righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith Rom. 1:17, is because of His Everlasting Mercy Ps. 103:17; having made Peace for US, has come together with His Mercy, which is Everlasting Salvation Ps. 85:10 !

 

[Clete]

You fail to answer my challenge:

My challenge was: "Quote me one Scripture that uses the words "choose" or "choice" or "free" that pertain to men willfully finding salvation and eternal life in Jesus Christ."

Instead, you consider your posting various instances of men making choices to be the same as dead sinners being able to choose to believe unto salvation.

I did both and you know it. Otherwise, I'd have never gotten a response from you at all.

I'll ask you again, do you believe that Joseph went to Hell?

I do not think you even grasp the importance of MY question. I think you are blinded to it and apparently have not been enable to see it when presented from other Reformers for 20 years.

Very sad . . .

You're such an arrogant liar, Nang!

If that were true, you could explain it to me but you won't. You won't even try! No matter how many times I ask you to explain the importance of your question you will refuse.

The wickedness of Satan was his denial of God's sovereign rule,

You're breaking that whole sola scriptura thing again!

There is no biblical evidence of a single evil act having ever occurred before Lucifer tempted Eve.

understanding the importance of God's creation of Adam, and the subsequent twisting of truth to the point of usurping both God and man, and your tactics seem to be similar.

:carryon:

Then why won't you engage the debate, Nang? You never ever engage the debate! You ask questions and, as predictably as the sunrise, you deny that the questions have been answered and then, as predictably as the sunset, won't explain yourself.

You are a liar and you are a fool.

You believe that God cannot change but the bible says that the Creator became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1); that He willingly laid down His own life and took it back up again. (John 10)
You believe that God planned for, predestined, ordained and commanded the killing of babies but God states in the bible that He neither spoke nor commanded any such thing nor did it ever enter His mind. (Jeremiah 19)
You believe that God always gets what He wants but the bible states that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God by refusing to get baptized. (Luke 7)
You believe that God cannot repent but the bible says that if a nation repents, so will He. (Jeremiah 18)
You believe that God knows everything in advance but the bible says that God investigates and that then He will know. (Gen 18) and tests His people and says "now I know". (Gen 22)
You believe that God both predestined and controls every event that happens but the bible says that God takes precautions. (Gen 3)
You believe that men are totally depraved but the bible has a whole list of righteous people. (1 Kings 3:6; Matthew 23:35)
You believe that Christ died only for a few but the bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)
You believe that God chose those who would be saved arbitrarily but the bible says that those who believe will be saved. (John 3:16; Romans 9:33)

I could go on doing that for hours! What is it that you believe that does not contradict the scripture? Your doctrine contradicts, not only the bulk of the scripture but the very heart of the gospel itself! If someone believes that God became a man and died and then rose from the dead, how then can they turn around and say that God cannot change? How is it possible for any sane person to hold both of those thoughts in their head at the same time and yet Calvinists do it every day!

Clete

 

[beloved57]

Amen Brother ! Even before the Fall, Adam's righteousness was far below God's standard of Righteousness which would only come through The God / Man Mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ, for His Church [God's Elect], those He Lived and Died for as their Surety Heb. 7:22.

Rom. 5:17, 19

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [Justified] Rom. 3:26.


So Christ, who is the Righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith Rom. 1:17, is because of His Everlasting Mercy Ps. 103:17; having made Peace for US, has come together with His Mercy, which is Everlasting Salvation Ps. 85:10 !

Sister what you think of Gills comment on Ps 85:10

righteousness and peace have kissed each other; as friends at meeting used to do: "righteousness" may intend the essential justice of God, which will not admit of the pardon and justification of a sinner, without a satisfaction; wherefore Christ was set forth to be the propitiation for sin, to declare and manifest the righteousness of God, his strict justice; that he might be just, and appear to be so, when he is the justifier of him that believes in Jesus; and Christ's blood being shed, and his sacrifice offered up, he is just and faithful to forgive sin, and cleanse from all unrighteousness, Exodus 34:6, Romans 3:25 and thus the law being magnified, and made honourable by the obedience and sufferings of Christ, an everlasting righteousness being brought in, and justice entirely satisfied, there is "peace" on earth, and good will to men: peace with God is made by Christ the peacemaker, and so the glory of divine justice is secured and peace with God for men obtained, in a way consistent with it, Luke 2:14 and Christ's righteousness being imputed and applied to men, and received by faith, produces a conscience peace, an inward peace of mind, which passeth all understanding, Romans 5:1.

 

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary within the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ because Christ was to be the firstborn of many brethren Rom 8:28-29


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
​​​​​​​
²⁹ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Nang]

I did both and you know it. Otherwise, I'd have never gotten a response from you at all.

I'll ask you again, do you believe that Joseph went to Hell?

You asked this of Joshua and the answer is no. Joshua believed God's command; it was the men of Shechem who professed to believe, who never did believe, and who perished in their unbelief. (Judges 9)

You believe that God cannot change but the bible says that the Creator became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1); that He willingly laid down His own life and took it back up again. (John 10)
You believe that God planned for, predestined, ordained and commanded the killing of babies but God states in the bible that He neither spoke not commanded any such thing nor did it ever enter His mind. (Jeremiah 19)
You believe that God always gets what He wants but the bible states that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God by refusing to get baptized. (Luke 7)
You believe that God cannot repent but the bible says that if a nation repents, so will He. (Jeremiah 18)
You believe that God knows everything in advance but the bible says that God investigates and that then He will know. (Gen 18) and tests His people and says "now I know". (Gen 22)
You believe that God both predestined and controls every event that happens but the bible says that God takes precautions. (Gen 3)
You believe that men are totally depraved but the bible has a whole list of righteous people. (1 Kings 3:6; Matthew 23:35)
You believe that Christ died only for a few but the bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)
You believe that God chose those who would be saved arbitrarily but the bible says that those who believe will be saved. (John 3:16; Romans 9:33)

This is simply a misrepresentation of Calvinist beliefs, that give you an excuse to parrot your Open View of a changeable God.

Thus, I am convinced you and I do not worship the same God at all.


You claim:

Your doctrine contradicts, not only the bulk of the scripture but the very heart of the gospel itself! If someone believes that God became a man and died and then rose from the dead, how then can they turn around and say that God cannot change?

Hebrews 13:8

How is it possible for any sane person to hold both of those thoughts in their head at the same time and yet Calvinists do it every day!

Calvinists study the Trinity. Open Theism insults and blasphemes Triune God.