Was the fall necessary ?

[genuineoriginal]

What did the post say ? Thats what Im saying

Not quite, you are missing a lot.

According to what I understand, Calvinists/Reformed teach that the fall is when mankind was cursed with Totally Depravity and destined to go to hell.
Calvinists also teach that Jesus died to provide Limited Atonement for the people chosen to receive Unconditional Election, which is salvation from hell.
Calvinists then teach that the people chosen to receive the Unconditional Election have no ability to go to hell because God's Irresistible Grace results in the Preservation of the Saints.

Therefore, according to Calvinism, the fall is when God decreed that billions of other people would go to hell with no possible hope of salvation.

The Fall was necessary in that God through it had determined that the redeemed would be conformed into the image of Christ His Son Rom 8:28-30

Can you please explain how God decreeing that billions of other people are going to hell with no possible hope of salvation is necessary in order to conform a small number of people into the image of Christ?

 

[Cntrysner]

If you choose to obey the master's will, you are choosing from your own will to do what the master wants you to do.
The alternative is to rebel against the master.
The choice of obeying or rebelling is the free-will choice.

You sound like you're robbing God of His will and if it is your will then it is self will and self righteousness. You have a choice to choose His will or not.

Maybe you missed it.
The prodigal was more honored than the son in the story.

He was not honored while being in the state of prodigal.

The prodigal chose to rebel and leave and then chose to come back as a servant if his father would only accept him as a servant.

When the once rebellious prodigal choose to be a servant he was accepting the will of the father and servitude and denying his own will by choice, when he made that choice he was no longer a prodigal. The father displayed his love by gifting and the prodigal in time realized that love and returned ready to do the fathers will as a servant and by that admission became a true son.

The other son did not leave but rebelled against his father's will anyway.

Yes, this son stayed hoping to be a beneficiary of his father's will even though he was not obeying the father's will but his own. This son is displaying a form of thievery.

The story is about love and obeying from the heart by choice. The son that stayed did his chores but did not do them from the heart. The once prodigal returned because of the father's love and reciprocated that love by taking the role of a servant and not a beneficiary of earthly goods but a beneficiary of his fathers love.

 

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary because God from the beginning had designed His People for a Heavenly Kingdom Matt 25:34

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 471

This is a heavenly Kingdom, Spiritual 2 Tim 4:18

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.

God designed that men would enter into a heavenly kingdom by way of first baring the image of the earthy and natural, then baring the image of the Spiritual and Heavenly 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Since Adam in his best state before the fall was merely natural and of flesh and blood, man in him wasn't fit for the heavenly kingdom merely in adam 1 Cor 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If man in adam had never fell into sin and remained innocent flesh and blood, they would not have been fit or qualified to enter the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the Sheep from the foundation of the World.

 

[Cntrysner]

That is the point.
There were righteous people in the Old Testament who refused sin without knowing Christ.
Even Paul talks about righteous Gentiles who don't know Christ.

The context we're speaking of is now, what was back then before the cross is not possible now for righteousness is in Him. Things that differ are not the same.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You sound like you're robbing God of His will and if it is your will then it is self will and self righteousness.

If you believe what you just said, then that is just sad.

The example I use is a marriage.
Does the husband lose free-will when the wife asks him to put his dirty clothes in the hamper and he does it? no
Does the wife lose free-will when the husband asks for a steak and potato dinner and she makes it for him? no

Why would you assume that either God or man will lose free-will if the man does what God tells him to do?
Why would you assume that either God or man will lose free-will if the man asks God to do something and God does it?

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Fall was necessary because God from the beginning had designed His People for a Heavenly Kingdom Matt 25:34

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 471

This is a heavenly Kingdom, Spiritual 2 Tim 4:18

The kingdom God prepared for mankind from the foundation of the world is on the earth, it is not in the sky and it is not in the spiritual realm.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The context we're speaking of is now, what was back then before the cross is not possible now for righteousness is in Him. Things that differ are not the same.

Righteousness is the same before and after the cross.

 

[beloved57]

The kingdom God prepared for mankind from the foundation of the world is on the earth, it is not in the sky and it is not in the spiritual realm.

Its a Heavenly Kingdom 2 Tim 4:18

[FONT=&quot]And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his [/FONT]heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



Same Kingdom Abraham sought for Heb 11:16

[FONT=&quot]But now they desire a better country, that is, an [/FONT]heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb 8:11

[FONT=&quot]And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with [/FONT]Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Its a Heavenly Kingdom

It is a kingdom that comes down from heaven to be established on earth.

Revelation 21:2-3 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.​

 

[Nanja]

The Fall was necessary in that God through it had determined that the redeemed would be conformed into the image of Christ His Son Rom 8:28-30

²⁸ And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

²⁹ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

³⁰ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


As the redeemed bare the image of the earthy, natural, they shall bare the greater image of the Spiritual, Heavenly 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now Christs image has the preeminence over adams Col 1:18


And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.460

Amen Brother ! The fall in Adam in his original posterity as Federal Head of all God's Chosen Elect Eph. 1:4, it was necessary that they all sin and bear the image of the earthy. For they were already, before the foundation of the World, predestinated to bear the Image of Christ their Head 1 Cor. 15:49, the Last Adam; the Heavenly 1 Cor. 15:49.

So in time, because they were Quickened together with Him when He rose as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb. 13:20, they shall all bear the Image of the Heavenly when they are Spiritually Quickened in Time, Born Again John 3:3; that is be conformed to His Image so that they all may be Glorified together Forever Rom. 8:17 !

 

[Cntrysner]

Righteousness is the same before and after the cross.

How so? I thought it was in Christ. Explain. It is grace or faith or what? Righteousness is by One displayed at the cross.

 

[Nanja]

The Fall was necessary because God from the beginning had designed His People for a Heavenly Kingdom Matt 25:34

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 471

This is a heavenly Kingdom, Spiritual 2 Tim 4:18

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.

God designed that men would enter into a heavenly kingdom by way of first baring the image of the earthy and natural, then baring the image of the Spiritual and Heavenly 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Since Adam in his best state before the fall was merely natural and of flesh and blood, man in him wasn't fit for the heavenly kingdom merely in adam 1 Cor 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If man in adam had never fell into sin and remained innocent flesh and blood, they would not have been fit or qualified to enter the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the Sheep from the foundation of the World.

Exactly, the Fall was necessary because before then, the Heirs of the Kingdom, God's Elect, the Sheep of Christ in Adam, were merely flesh and blood and had not yet been made meet to inherit the Heavenly Eternal Kingdom which God had prepared, and which was Promised them in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Eph. 1:4, 11

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


For God hath prepared for them a City Heb. 11:16, a Great Inheritance Mat. 25:34.

The exact same City God Promised to Abraham and His Seed, the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29 !

 

[Clete]

If man in adam had never fell into sin and remained innocent flesh and blood, they would not have been fit or qualified to enter the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the Sheep from the foundation of the World.

How does anyone count this heretic as a Christian?

 

[Clete]

The context we're speaking of is now, what was back then before the cross is not possible now for righteousness is in Him. Things that differ are not the same.

Why wouldn't it be possible now?

That is, why wouldn't it be possible for someone who has never heard the gospel but "who show(s) the work of the law written in their hearts... (Romans 2)" to be saved just as they were before?

God made mankind with an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Everyone knows that things like murder and adultry and stealing are wrong. Even criminals know it.

God changed dispensations, not righteousness itself and if God, while the Law of Moses was in effect, counted gentiles as righteous based on the law written on their hearts apart from that Law, why would He do otherwise when that Law has been taken out of the way?

 

[genuineoriginal]

How so? I thought it was in Christ. Explain. It is grace or faith or what? Righteousness is by One displayed at the cross.

Righteousness is of God.
Righteousness apart from the Law comes by the same faith that Jesus Christ has and is given by God to all that believe.

Romans 3:21-23 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

 

[beloved57]

The Fall of man was necessary to fulfill the fact that man originally was made in the image and likeness of God, which image is ultimately conformity to Christ, who is the Ultimate Image and Likeness to God Col 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

How can man be in the image of God without conformity to Christ ?

 

[Cntrysner]

Righteousness is of God.
Righteousness apart from the Law comes by the same faith that Jesus Christ has and is given by God to all that believe.

Romans 3:21-23 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

Yes, righteousness is of God but it changed when Christ gave His life at the cross to remove the law.

One righteousness was under the law and God gave it to men by grace through their faith.

Now righteousness is in Christ, this righteousness belongs to Christ not men. It is His righteousness that He owns by His faith in His Father God, this righteousness does not come by man's faith.

There is no difference because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

But thank God through our Lord Jesus we can choose Christ and escape sin by His righteousness.

 

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary in order to bring the children of God to Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​497

 

[Hawkins]

Each step is necessary.

God's ultimate plan (or part of it):
- to build a new eternity we call Heaven (or more precisely the New Heaven and New Earth)

LAW:
- is necessary to identify who should be qualified to enter Heaven.
Everyone (angels and humans alike) needs to pass a final judgment in order to enter Heaven. The angels were created first and will be given mass amount of time for their freewill (lesser than humans') to divide, as freewill will inevitably signify division.

The division process has nothing to do with God's foreknowledge. It's to facilitate an open and final judgment. Even though God knows before hand who will be saved in the end, this process is still needed to be openly witnessed by other angels and whoever chosen to be the witnesses.

Eden:
Eden is necessary as humans are less intelligent but given more degree of freewill, especially under the circumstance that the much more intelligent angels are allowed to influence. Actually a 100% fall is expected under the circumstance. LAW thus cannot effectively identify and qualify humans (as 100% of them will fall under the direct influence of the much more intelligent fallen angels including Satan itself).

Earth:
Earth is thus necessary acting as the place for human division, under the intangible influence from both God and Satan.

Period before Noah:
This period is necessary to further testify that the establishment of earth will cause a 100% fall of humans if LAW is the only measurement in the judgment.

Covenant:
Since LAW means (proven) 100% fall of humans, humans if savable have to rely on something else to be saved/judged/qualified. A covenant is thus in place. The primary purpose of a covenant is to serve as an open standard to identify the righteous/saved from the wicked/unsaved.

Grace:
A covenant is a mixture of laws and Grace in various forms. The final covenant is thus with Grace maximized and law minimized (which is the New Covenant).

Jesus:
Jesus is thus necessary, as a covenant cannot be justified above LAW without Jesus's self sacrifice.

Soul:
Soul is necessary as along with the decay of a human physical body, no other identification can be used to facilitate an openly witnessed judgment. Only God knows who is who. A soul (like angels' body) is a permanent ID for a human to be openly witnessed in a realm of eternity. By design it's immortal and eternal.

Judgment:
Judgment is necessary for angels to be qualified by LAW, and humans to be qualified by covenants.

Hell:
Hell is necessary to accommodate those immortal souls failed to pass the final judgment. God is the God of the living, not the dead. For these souls to be legitimately relieved in one way or another, Jesus/God needs to make another sacrifice, as a matter of justification (this time above both LAW and covenants). This second crucifixion of Christ won't happen. That's why it's said that God is the God of the living but not the dead.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Yes, righteousness is of God but it changed when Christ gave His life at the cross

No, righteousness did not change when Christ gave His life.

Christ gave His life at the cross to remove the law.

No, Christ did not give His life to remove the law.

this righteousness does not come by man's faith.

Actually, it does, whenever a man's faith follows the same pattern as the faith of Christ.