Was the fall necessary ?

Nanja · Sep 1, 2019

beloved57 said:
It was through the Fall and men being made sinners Rom 5:12 that God purposed to make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of His Mercy Rom 9:23

²³And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God purposed the fall of His Own Elect in Adam, His Children Chosen In Union with Christ, their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5, so that He might lavish upon them His Mercy Ps. 103:17 which was from Everlasting !

These Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23 are the only portion of humanity whom God Loved and Purposed to Save from sin; For them He is Rich in Mercy:

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us

These Vessels of Mercy are the Seed of Christ Is. 53:10; the Heritage of God.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

beloved57 · Sep 1, 2019

Nanja said:
God purposed the fall of His Own Elect in Adam, His Children Chosen In Union with Christ, their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5, so that He might lavish upon them His Mercy Ps. 103:17 which was from Everlasting !

These Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23 are the only portion of humanity whom God Loved and Purposed to Save from sin; For them He is Rich in Mercy:

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us

These Vessels of Mercy are the Seed of Christ Is. 53:10; the Heritage of God.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Amen Sister !

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Clete · Sep 1, 2019

blasphemy57's posts in this Calvinist echo chamber of a thread where no Calvinist responds to anyone except other Calvinists, is quite completely consistent with what was taught by John Calvin himself...

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will...
...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

Of course, if even one syllable of any of that tripe is true then God is unjust, by definition, and thus why should anyone care about what they do or don't do? Indeed, if they do care, it's only because God predestined that they would which is just completely irrational, unfalsifiable insanity.

Clete

Jerry Shugart · Sep 1, 2019

beloved57 said:
It was through the Fall and men being made sinners Rom 5:12 that God purposed to make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of His Mercy Rom 9:23

²³And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Men are made sinners when they sin and not before. The Lord Jesus was made like His brothers in all things so it is ridiculous to teach that all people emerge from the womb as sinners:

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:16-17).

In his commentary on this verse Matthew Poole wrote that "To be made like unto his brethren; a man having a true body and soul like them in every thing, which was necessary to make him a complete Redeemer; agreeable to them in all things necessary to their nature, qualities, conditions, and affections; like them in sorrows, griefs, pains, death."

According to Poole the Lord Jesus' body and soul was just like the body and soul of every person.

Albert Barnes sees the same truth, writing that "Wherefore in all things - In respect to his body; his soul; his rank and character. There was a propriety that he should be like them, and should partake of their nature."

The Lord Jesus was made like His brethren in all things so if the theory of Original Sin is correct then we must somehow trick our minds into believing that the Lord Jesus emerged from the womb deprived of holiness and lacking in moral ability.

beloved57 · Sep 1, 2019

Yes the Fall was necessary, for it was necessary that God would be Glorified by His Son the Lord Jesus Christ in His Life and Death Jn 12:28

²⁸Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 433

Cntrysner · Sep 1, 2019

We are born sinners so that God gets all glory for our salvation, to think differently in my opinion would be to rob God. Christ was born in the flesh to suffer and pay our sin debt as a spotless sacrifice without a sin nature and gave His Father all glory. The difference between us and Christ is God was His Father even though he was born in the flesh.

We can not refuse sin because we are born in it of the earth not from above of the Father.

Jerry Shugart · Sep 1, 2019

Cntrysner said:
We are born sinners so that God gets all glory for our salvation, to think differently in my opinion would be to rob God.

Again, the Lord Jesus was made like His brothers in "all things" so it is obvious that no one is born a sinner.

Cntrysner · Sep 1, 2019

Jerry Shugart said:
Again, the Lord Jesus was made like His brothers in "all things" so it is obvious that no one is born a sinner.

Again, not made like just like His brothers in spirit and did not have a sin nature. He was born of the Father from above not like you in spirit. Christ existed before He was even born from a woman's womb.

Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

ttruscott · Sep 1, 2019

Jerry Shugart said:
If you believe that the LORD God exists in "time" then the following verse demonstrates that according to His foreknowledge He chose or elected those who believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Also an excellent verse but to be true I believe we had to be there as Jeremiah was: Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...

Nanja · Sep 1, 2019

beloved57 said:
Yes the Fall was necessary, for it was necessary that God would be Glorified by His Son the Lord Jesus Christ in His Life and Death Jn 12:28

²⁸Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 433

Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.

Cntrysner · Sep 1, 2019

Nothing exist without the Father, of all, not anything. All that you can think, he is the author or you could not even think it. Our interpretation of that truth is base on our limited knowledge of truth. Like how did sin enter the world when there was no sin or knowledge of it and we say then, man was the author of sin but sin could not exist without God the author of all. Sin was offered in the form of a tree but a tree needs roots, nutrients,a medium, rain, and most of all the sun. So, is Gods offerings sinful, no it is not, his willful offerings display sin and it is for our benefit as we are beneficially created in sin to the Glory of God or all created by God would be fruitless without sin and Christ born of the flesh could not be exalted and we could not be exalted in Christ above the angelic creation.

Cntrysner · Sep 1, 2019

Nanja said:
Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.

So, do you believe Jesus was/is God? If true that Jesus is the Emmanuel of creation then Christ lived in obedience to His own law.

Cntrysner · Sep 1, 2019

Colossians 1:16 Context

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Jerry Shugart · Sep 1, 2019

Cntrysner said:
Again, not made like just like His brothers in spirit and did not have a sin nature. He was born of the Father from above not like you in spirit. Christ existed before He was even born from a woman's womb.

Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Again, the author of the book of Hebrews stated that the Lord Jesus was made like His brothers in "all things," not only in "some things."

Jerry Shugart · Sep 1, 2019

ttruscott said:
Also an excellent verse but to be true I believe we had to be there as Jeremiah was: Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...

The first thing that must be understood is that God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means."

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance."

It can be said that God knew Jeremiah before the foundation of the world because He exists in the "etenal now" or the "ever present now" even though Jeremiah did not come into existence centuries later.

In other words, before the foundation of the world God saw Jeremiah so it can be said in all truthfulness that Hesaw Jeremiah before he even existed.

beloved57 · Sep 2, 2019

Nanja said:
Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.

Amen Sister!

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Truster · Sep 2, 2019

Nanja said:
Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.

There is no such thing nor place as eternity past. Eternity is not subject to time. Both you and blaspemy57 are ignorant of the reason for and the purpose of time and so you keep repeating terms parrot fasion with no understanding.

ttruscott · Sep 2, 2019

Jerry Shugart said:
In other words, before the foundation of the world God saw Jeremiah so it can be said in all truthfulness that Hesaw Jeremiah before he even existed.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... does not say that HE saw Jeremiah but that HE KNEW him! This must mean that HE knew him personally not just knew about him as He does the demons and the foolish virgins whom He told "I never knew thee...!"

Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning is rejected due to a theological position. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine, that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine and we know what that is called.

Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

JudgeRightly · Sep 2, 2019

ttruscott said:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... does not say that HE saw Jeremiah but that HE KNEW him! This must mean that HE knew him personally not just knew about him as He does the demons and the foolish virgins whom He told "I never knew thee...!"

Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning is rejected due to a theological position. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine, that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine and we know what that is called.

Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

In Hebrew, Jeremiah 1:5 says "before I formed you in the womb".

The word used for form DOES NOT MEAN to bring into existence. It means to form or fashion, as a potter does to clay.

Spoiler

In other words, God knows us in the womb, not before it, because as you said, "it is impossible to know someone before they exist." It is also impossible to know about someone before they exist.

6days · Sep 2, 2019

Clete said:
The classical understanding of omniscience is based on pagan Greek philosophy and not the bible. It's foundational premise is the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. It is not biblical - period.
God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable. God could not have "known" that Adam would sin, in the sense you mean it.

Thanks for your reply, Clete; but... I think you are trying to give me a headache. Ha

I have no idea about pagan Greek philosophy. But the Bible does tell us that God knows everything and has perfect knowledge. He knows our thoughts.... He knows the future. So.... I would think that God knew Adam would sin. The Bible tells us that God chose Christ as our savior before he created the world. (1st Peter 1, Revelation 13)

Clete said:
(Calvinists) absolutely do believe that Adam's sin was not simply a foregone conclusion but that God Himself planned and infallibly predestined his sin.Adam's sin, according to the Calvinist, was conceived in the mind of God an eternity before Adam ever existed.

I think this is where my headache starts to intensify. God did not plan / program Adam to fail. But God knew that Adam would sin.

Yes, sin was conceived as you say in eternity past. God created Adam, for relationship and for love. Love isn't possible, if rejection isn't possible. Love always involves choice.

Clete said:
God chooses those who repent and respond to Him in faith.

A migraine is coming on as I consider that. I'm not so sure..... Do you think that even though I was totally unrighteous, that luck and my smart decision brought me to Christ. Or... Did God choose to put people in my path, and to enlighten me. I don't think we can totally understand why or how God chose us.

Clete said:
God did not choose you in any sort of arbitrary manner....

Again.... I don't think we can possibly understand why or how God chooses people. Why did God choose Saul? Why did God choose the nation of Israel? Etc. Those decisions to choose Saul, Israel and other examples do seem fairly arbitrary, but there may be more to those 'choices' then what we understand. I think we both might have some understanding of God choosing Israel, but we both might get lost in the weeds a little bit as we consider blessings and judgments on future generations of individuals including children. (Tylenol is not helping me at this point).

Clete said:
God's mercy is afforded to those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead. If that's you then you're one of God's chosen not because your faith earns any merit but because of God's choice. It is God's mercy. He can have mercy on whomever He wills to have mercy on so long as justice is preserved, which is what Calvary was all about.

Amen!

Was the fall necessary ?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Truth Smacker

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

Well-known member

裁判官が正しく判断する

New member