Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Was the fall necessary ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Nothing exist without the Father, of all, not anything. All that you can think, he is the author or you could not even think it. Our interpretation of that truth is base on our limited knowledge of truth. Like how did sin enter the world when there was no sin or knowledge of it and we say then, man was the author of sin but sin could not exist without God the author of all. Sin was offered in the form of a tree but a tree needs roots, nutrients,a medium, rain, and most of all the sun. So, is Gods offerings sinful, no it is not, his willful offerings display sin and it is for our benefit as we are beneficially created in sin to the Glory of God or all created by God would be fruitless without sin and Christ born of the flesh could not be exalted and we could not be exalted in Christ above the angelic creation.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Nanja View Post
      Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.
      So, do you believe Jesus was/is God? If true that Jesus is the Emmanuel of creation then Christ lived in obedience to His own law.

      Comment


      • #33
        Colossians 1:16 Context

        13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

        14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

        15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

        16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

        17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

        18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

        19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
          Again, not made like just like His brothers in spirit and did not have a sin nature. He was born of the Father from above not like you in spirit. Christ existed before He was even born from a woman's womb.

          Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
          Again, the author of the book of Hebrews stated that the Lord Jesus was made like His brothers in "all things," not only in "some things."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
            Also an excellent verse but to be true I believe we had to be there as Jeremiah was: Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...
            The first thing that must be understood is that God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

            "There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means."

            According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:
            "Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance."

            It can be said that God knew Jeremiah before the foundation of the world because He exists in the "etenal now" or the "ever present now" even though Jeremiah did not come into existence centuries later.

            In other words, before the foundation of the world God saw Jeremiah so it can be said in all truthfulness that Hesaw Jeremiah before he even existed.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Nanja View Post
              Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.
              Amen Sister!

              Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
              "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
              preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
              called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
              a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

              Charles Spurgeon !

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Nanja View Post
                Amen Brother ! I believe Scripture teaches that before the foundation of the World, in Eternity past, God was Glorified in His Son Jesus Christ when He struck a Covenant with the Father to become Surety Heb. 7:22 for all God's Elect, or His Sheep, to Live and Die for them John 10:11, 15; the Chosen Ones of the Father to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7. And indeed God was Glorified in Him when He Lived in Perfect Obedience to God's Law and Justice Rom. 5:19 on their behalf, even His Obedience of the Cross Phil. 2:8.
                There is no such thing nor place as eternity past. Eternity is not subject to time. Both you and blaspemy57 are ignorant of the reason for and the purpose of time and so you keep repeating terms parrot fasion with no understanding.
                I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

                "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

                I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
                A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
                If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

                Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

                I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  In other words, before the foundation of the world God saw Jeremiah so it can be said in all truthfulness that Hesaw Jeremiah before he even existed.
                  Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... does not say that HE saw Jeremiah but that HE KNEW him! This must mean that HE knew him personally not just knew about him as He does the demons and the foolish virgins whom He told "I never knew thee...!"

                  Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning is rejected due to a theological position. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine, that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine and we know what that is called.

                  Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
                  If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
                  I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                  - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                  - All evil is creature-created.

                  I Champion Our Free will:
                  - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                    Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... does not say that HE saw Jeremiah but that HE KNEW him! This must mean that HE knew him personally not just knew about him as He does the demons and the foolish virgins whom He told "I never knew thee...!"

                    Everyone when they first read this says, "Hey, does this say we were alive before we were in the womb?" and quickly learns that not only does it not mean this but is a hated Mormon doctrine. The obvious meaning is rejected due to a theological position. It is obvious that the verse can have this meaning but theology has chosen to ignore it for another meaning...GOD only knew us pre-earth in HIS imagination...otherwise it upsets orthodox doctrine, that is, doctrine is used to find a verse's meaning rather than the meaning being found in the verse to create doctrine and we know what that is called.

                    Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
                    If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
                    In Hebrew, Jeremiah 1:5 says "before I formed you in the womb".



                    The word used for form DOES NOT MEAN to bring into existence. It means to form or fashion, as a potter does to clay.

                    Spoiler
                    Strong's h3335

                    - Lexical: יָצַר
                    - Transliteration: yatsar
                    - Part of Speech: Verb
                    - Phonetic Spelling: yaw-tsar'
                    - Definition: to form, fashion.
                    - Origin: Probably identical with yatsar (through the squeezing into shape); ((compare yatsa')); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. Form a resolution).
                    - Usage: X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.
                    - Translated as (count): the potter (5), of potter (4), of the potter (4), the Maker (3), And formed (2), and He who formed you (2), formed (2), that I formed it (2), who formed (2), am fashioning (1), and formed you (1), and forms (1), and he fashioned (1), and He who formed them (1), and his Maker (1), can as potter (1), earthen (1), fashioned for me (1), Fashions it (1), for Him who fashioned it (1), have made (1), He fashions (1), He formed (1), He had formed (1), He who formed (1), He who forms (1), his Maker (1), I form (1), I formed you (1), I have formed (1), I have formed him (1), I have formed you (1), I have purposed (1), of him who formed it (1), of its mold (1), our potter (1), the potter's (1), the potters (1), there was formed (1), Those who make (1), to him who forms it (1), which devises (1), who formed it (1), who formed Me (1), would form (1), You have made (1).


                    In other words, God knows us in the womb, not before it, because as you said, "it is impossible to know someone before they exist." It is also impossible to know about someone before they exist.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Clete
                      The classical understanding of omniscience is based on pagan Greek philosophy and not the bible. It's foundational premise is the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. It is not biblical - period.
                      God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable. God could not have "known" that Adam would sin, in the sense you mean it.
                      Thanks for your reply, Clete; but... I think you are trying to give me a headache. Ha

                      I have no idea about pagan Greek philosophy. But the Bible does tell us that God knows everything and has perfect knowledge. He knows our thoughts.... He knows the future. So.... I would think that God knew Adam would sin. The Bible tells us that God chose Christ as our savior before he created the world. (1st Peter 1, Revelation 13)
                      Originally posted by Clete
                      (Calvinists) absolutely do believe that Adam's sin was not simply a foregone conclusion but that God Himself planned and infallibly predestined his sin.Adam's sin, according to the Calvinist, was conceived in the mind of God an eternity before Adam ever existed.
                      I think this is where my headache starts to intensify. God did not plan / program Adam to fail. But God knew that Adam would sin.

                      Yes, sin was conceived as you say in eternity past. God created Adam, for relationship and for love. Love isn't possible, if rejection isn't possible. Love always involves choice.
                      Originally posted by Clete
                      God chooses those who repent and respond to Him in faith.
                      A migraine is coming on as I consider that. I'm not so sure..... Do you think that even though I was totally unrighteous, that luck and my smart decision brought me to Christ. Or... Did God choose to put people in my path, and to enlighten me. I don't think we can totally understand why or how God chose us.

                      Originally posted by Clete
                      God did not choose you in any sort of arbitrary manner....
                      Again.... I don't think we can possibly understand why or how God chooses people. Why did God choose Saul? Why did God choose the nation of Israel? Etc. Those decisions to choose Saul, Israel and other examples do seem fairly arbitrary, but there may be more to those 'choices' then what we understand. I think we both might have some understanding of God choosing Israel, but we both might get lost in the weeds a little bit as we consider blessings and judgments on future generations of individuals including children. (Tylenol is not helping me at this point).
                      Originally posted by Clete
                      God's mercy is afforded to those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead. If that's you then you're one of God's chosen not because your faith earns any merit but because of God's choice. It is God's mercy. He can have mercy on whomever He wills to have mercy on so long as justice is preserved, which is what Calvary was all about.
                      Amen!
                      Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                        ...then we must accept that HE knew who would end in hell before HE created them BUT created them anyway
                        He knew we would reject Him, and that we deserve Hell... but He chose to save us anyway. He could not create people without the choice to reject Him.
                        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                        How can HE create them knowing they would end in hell if this was HIS desire. It is nonsense.
                        His desire is a love relationship with us. We all deserve Hell, but God created us anyway and provided a salvation plan. You seem to suggest that God should have only created robots to obey Him?
                        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                        GOD did not program anyone to sin by any means at all including forcing us to be born into Adam's human bloodline and forcing us to inherit his evil without any choice to be evil at all.
                        Possibly I'm not understanding you....The Bible clearly tells us we inherited Adam's sin nature. There is none righteous... If we could be sinless on our own, then Last Adam and Calvary would not have been necessary.
                        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                        But if there was no righteousness in us then for what reason did HE chose us? AND MORE IMPORTANTLY: Why did HE NOT elect some others?
                        Amazing love... How can it be... that thou my God, would die for ME?? What did I do to deserve His Favor? I do not understand how or why God chose me. Did I play a part in my on salvation? Should I take some credit? Was there enough righteousness in me to realize I was a sinner in need of a Savior?
                        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                        1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by anyone else's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?
                        Good question... I don't know. There are various opinions from commentators on that verse. For example...is it possible the elect angels are departed saints?
                        Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                          Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... does not say that HE saw Jeremiah but that HE KNEW him! This must mean that HE knew him personally not just knew about him as He does the demons and the foolish virgins whom He told "I never knew thee...!"
                          The LORD was right there before Jeremiah was formed in his mother's womb and He was right there when Jeremiah was born again. The LORD knew Jeremiah when he was born again and since the LORD exists in the "eternal now" or "ever present now" then it can be said in all truthfulness that He knew Jeremiah before he was formed in his mother's womb:
                          "Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 6days View Post
                            Thanks for your reply, Clete; but... I think you are trying to give me a headache. Ha


                            I have no idea about pagan Greek philosophy.
                            If you believe in the classical ideas of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, immutability, impassibility, etc., you do so because of Augustine who learned them from Aristotle and Plato and who, in fact, refused to become a Christian until his mother's bishop, Bishop Ambros of Millan, explained to him how to understand the bible in light of the teachings of Aristotle.

                            But the Bible does tell us that God knows everything and has perfect knowledge.
                            No, it doesn't. Not in the way you mean it. God has perfect knowledge of that which is knowable and that He wants to know.

                            He knows our thoughts....
                            Our thoughts are quite knowable but there is no indication in the bible that God is continuously reading our minds at all times, never mind the thoughts of every wicked person in the world.

                            He knows the future.
                            He predicts the future and works with, through, against and around people and manipulates certain cirmcumstances to bring some of those predictions to pass, but not all of them. There are several prophecies that God makes in the bible that did not come to pass and others that He would have prefered to not come to pass. The entire book of Jonah is devoted to telling the story of how a prophecy did not come to pass, just to give one major example.

                            So.... I would think that God knew Adam would sin.
                            I am not suggesting that God was surprised by Adam's sin but He absolutely did not "know" that Adam would definitely sin. He clearly had planned for it and He may well have fully expected it to happen but that is not the same as knowing it in the absolute sense of the word.

                            The Bible tells us that God chose Christ as our savior before he created the world. (1st Peter 1, Revelation 13)
                            Yes, it does. This is perhaps the strongest evidence that God fully expected that Adam would sin, or, at the very least, God fully expected that someone would sin eventually. It wouldn't have had to be Adam himself but rather one of his children.

                            I think this is where my headache starts to intensify. God did not plan / program Adam to fail. But God knew that Adam would sin.


                            Yes, sin was conceived as you say in eternity past. God created Adam, for relationship and for love. Love isn't possible, if rejection isn't possible. Love always involves choice.
                            Do you call yourself a Calvinist?

                            I'm guessing not. Most Calvinist cannot think this clearly.

                            You have, however, only moved the problem a little to one side rather than done away with it. Let me explain what I mean...

                            The Calvinist excludes choice by means of predestination. For them it wasn't Adam's choice but God's. There are some who insist upon saying that God predestined Adam's choice but that is an obvious contradiction. A contradiction which they ignore by slapping the label of "antinomy" onto it and just declaring it to be beyond human understanding.

                            On the other end of the spectrum is the typical Arminian who rejects Calvinist style predestination. They do so for precisely the reason you state above, "Love always involves a choice.".
                            But they still cling to the doctrine of exhaustive divine forknowledge, which has the exact same problem but for a different reason. The problem foreknowledge presents for free will isn't quite as straight forward as the plain contradiction that predestination presents but it boils down to this...

                            If something is known in advance then it is a logical necessity.
                            If it is a logical necessity then there is no logical alternative.
                            If there is no logical alternative then there is no choice.
                            Therefore, if my action was known in advance, I did not choose it.

                            Here is the same argument is a more formal syllogism...
                            T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am
                            1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
                            2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
                            3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
                            4. Necessarily, if yesterday God infallibly believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
                            5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
                            6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
                            7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
                            8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
                            9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
                            10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

                            Source

                            The author of that syllogism is a Prof. Linda Zagzebski, the Kingfisher College Chair of the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics at Oklahoma University. She calls this the "Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism" because she happens to be a Catholic and presupposes the truth of God's exhaustive infallible foreknowledge and thus intended it as a proof that people do not have free will. (I've often wondered whether it has ever occurred to her that the same argument applies to God's will and that if He knows everything in advance then He is no more free than we are.) At any rate, the point here is that this is not something that was cooked up to argue in favor of Open Theism. In fact, the syllogism does not argue whether God foreknows everything nor whether we have free will. It simply proves that infallible foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive ideas. If you accept one, you are forced to reject the other.

                            A migraine is coming on as I consider that. I'm not so sure..... Do you think that even though I was totally unrighteous, that luck and my smart decision brought me to Christ. Or... Did God choose to put people in my path, and to enlighten me. I don't think we can totally understand why or how God chose us.
                            "Totally understand"? Perhaps not but it isn't nearly so mystical as the Calvinists would have you believe.

                            It certainly wasn't mere luck! That's what the Calvinist believe.

                            Again.... I don't think we can possibly understand why or how God chooses people. Why did God choose Saul? Why did God choose the nation of Israel? Etc. Those decisions to choose Saul, Israel and other examples do seem fairly arbitrary, but there may be more to those 'choices' then what we understand. I think we both might have some understanding of God choosing Israel, but we both might get lost in the weeds a little bit as we consider blessings and judgments on future generations of individuals including children. (Tylenol is not helping me at this point).
                            Amen!
                            Why do they seem arbitrary?

                            Clete
                            Last edited by Clete; September 3rd, 2019, 03:28 PM.
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              God's choice that we would sin is in His creation. We being creatures of flesh and the lust thereof can not refuse sin. God absolutely predestined that we would sin because he knew His creation. We can not avoid our fallen state that we inherited from Adam by birth thus we choose to sin because sin is in the flesh. Man cannot overcome sin save one because He was both man and God.

                              God's predestination displayed at creation and man's ability to choose coexist. It took both God and man for sin to enter the world and it took a God Man to reconcile it.

                              If I gave someone a gun and the ability to use it to protect and provide for themselves and they accidentally or intentionally blew their head off with it then by law I did not commit murder and cannot be held responsible. God did predestinate all would be born in sin except one whose Father was not Adam.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Clete View Post
                                If something is known in advance then it is a logical necessity.
                                If it is a logical necessity then there is no logical alternative.
                                If there is no logical alternative then there is no choice.
                                Therefore, if my action was known in advance, I did not choose it.
                                Clete, that makes sense if God is constrained by time. However, consider the following written by Loraine Boettner:

                                "Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance."

                                From this we can understand that in "time" the LORD does not know when a person believes until he believes. But since the LORD lives in the ever present "now" then it can be said that that person was chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world because with the LORD the same moment when He sees someone believe is the same moment before the foundation of the world.

                                The following verse demonstrates that this is true:

                                "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"
                                (Eph.1:3-4).

                                Since the Body of Christ (in Him) did not even exist before the foundation of the world then how is it possible for anyone to be chosen "in Him" before the world came into existence? It is not possible!

                                The believer is not baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ until he believes. So no one was baptized into the Body of Christ before the foundation of the world. But since the LORD exists outside of time in the ever present "now" then the moment when the LORD sees anyone believe is the same moment which can be said to be before the foundation of the world with the LORD because He exists outside of time.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X