Was the fall necessary ?

[Jerry Shugart]

Dan. 4:35 clearly teaches that God's Purpose and Will is Supreme and overrides all others !

Yes, but that does not mean that God wills the evil deeds of people. That would make God responsible for all the evil which is in the world.

It is beyond me why the Calvinists continue to teach this nonsense. Evidently they do not know the God who is merciful and full of grace.

God's will is not man's will because the will of the Man Jesus Christ was not the same will of the Father in heaven. The Son said the following to his Father:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

Since the Lord Jesus' words there contradict your false teaching you just ignore it and go about your business of misleading others.

 

[Nanja]

Yes, but that does not mean that God wills the evil deeds of people. That would make God responsible for all the evil which is in the world.

It is beyond me why the Calvinists continue to teach this nonsense. Evidently they do not know the God who is merciful and full of grace.

God's will is not man's will because the will of the Man Jesus Christ was not the same will of the Father in heaven. The Son said the following to his Father:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

Since the Lord Jesus' words there contradict your false teaching you just ignore it and go about your business of misleading others.

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Now how can an inhabitant of the world who is reputed as nothing have been given a freewill to override God's Will?
For their will is nothing compared to God !


This verse plainly states [for those who have ears to Hear Prov. 20:12], that God performs what He desires among the inhabitants of the earth; that is without any hindrance or interference from men; or based on what they do, or do not do.

It means whatever God Wills shall be done !

His Vessels of Wrath Rom. 9:22 which He hated do wickedly exactly as He Purposed them to do;

And His Vessels of Mercy which He Loved are already forgiven for what they do, or do not do, because the Righteousness of Christ has already been imputed to them:

Ps. 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.


Rom. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


God's Justice is Perfect !


Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


Deut. 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

God, according to His Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11, does all according to His Will.

Eph. 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Mat. 25:32-34, 41,46

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Now those who stumble on these Truths, God also hath appointed their disobedience 1 Pet. 2:8 !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Now how can an inhabitant of the world who is reputed as nothing have been given a freewill to override God's Will?

Since the LORD wants all men to be saved and that is obviously His will then why aren't all men saved?:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

It is because God's will and man's will are different and men do not always do God's will but instead do their their own. The following words in prayer to the Father proves that the Man Jesus Christ had a will which is different from the Father's will:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

Why do you never address this verse?

 

[Nanja]

Since the LORD wants all men to be saved and that is obviously His will then why aren't all men saved?:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

It is because God's will and man's will are different and men do not always do God's will but instead do their their own. The following words in prayer to the Father proves that the Man Jesus Christ had a will which is different from the Father's will:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

Why do you never address this verse?

The "all" men of 1 Tim 2:4-6 is the Greek word "PAS" which can simply mean "some of all types" of all God's Elect who have been Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation of the world, to be Holy and without blame before Him in Love Eph. 1:4-5: The same World God Loved, spoken of in John 3:16, which consists of the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29.

But God never loved the devil's children: Reprobates Titus 1:16, John 8:24; the seed of the serpent John 8:44; the seed of the wicked Ps. 37:28 KJV; Mat. 13:38; Ungodly men 2 Pet. 3:7; Vessels of God's Wrath Rom. 9:22. For these God has plenty of Judgment awaiting them Rev. 21:8 !


Now, about Mat. 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

When did this Cup become the Will of the Father for Christ ? It was the Will of the Father before the World began, before Adam sinned.

Ps. 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, the fall was necessary. Otherwise we'd go straight from summer into winter. :cigar:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "all" men of 1 Tim 2:4-6 is the Greek word "PAS" which can simply mean "some of all types" of all God's Elect who have been Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation of the world

Could you provide a translation which matches what you say the following verse means?:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

 

[beloved57]

Nanja

When did this Cup become the Will of the Father for Christ ? It was the Will of the Father before the World began, before Adam sinned.

Most blessedly True Sister !

 

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary in that it was merely part of God working everything after the counsel of His Own Will Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

If the fall occurred in time it was part of Gods own Purpose and Will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So Adam did not possess free will because he was going to eat of the forbidden tree no matter what because God had decreed that he would!

 

[beloved57]

So Adam did not possess free will because he was going to eat of the forbidden tree no matter what because God had decreed that he would!

Adam had a responsible will, but nevertheless it wasnt free from Gods own will. Adams responsible will was one of the all things that worketh after the counsel of Gods own will ! Did you comprehend that ?

 

[Nanja]

The Fall was necessary in that it was merely part of God working everything after the counsel of His Own Will Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

If the fall occurred in time it was part of Gods own Purpose and Will.

It surely was, Brother ! For in the Eternal Purpose of God Eph. 1:11 all His Elect were already Saved, Justified and Glorified in Christ the Lamb Slain before the foundation of the World Rev. 13:8b.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[ttruscott]

Not according to Calvinism, he can't. Any punishment would be completely arbitrary, because he only did that which God predestined him to do. Doing God's will cannot be considered evil, because God is not evil or unjust. Punishing Satan for doing God's will would be unjust, and would mean that God Himself is unjust.

According to Open Theism, however, God is Just, and Satan IS guilty, of tempting Eve and causing her to sin, for the fall of mankind, and for his rebellion against God since then, and can therefore be justly punished.

Yes.......except for the inherited sin fallacy,

 

[beloved57]

The fall of man into sin was necessary because Jesus Christ who created Adam is the Resurrection and the Life Jn 11:25 710

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Before Adam was created Jesus Christ was the Resurrection, which resurrection denotes His resurrection from the dead following His death for the sins of His People. Yet He was the present tense " I am the Resurrection" even before He actually died in time. When He said these words, He had not yet died on the cross !

 

[JudgeRightly]

The fall of man into sin was necessary because Jesus Christ who created Adam is the Resurrection and the Life Jn 11:25 710

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Before Adam was created Jesus Christ was the Resurrection, which resurrection denotes His resurrection from the dead following His death for the sins of His People. Yet He was the present tense " I am the Resurrection" even before He actually died in time. When He said these words, He had not yet died on the cross !

You say God is unchanging.

What Christ being crucified before the foundation of the world?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Adam had a responsible will, but nevertheless it wasnt free from Gods own will. Adams responsible will was one of the all things that worketh after the counsel of Gods own will ! Did you comprehend that ?

If a man's will isn't free from God's own will then why aren't all men saved?:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

 

[beloved57]

If a man's will isn't free from God's own will then why aren't all men saved?:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim.2:3-4).​

Adam had a responsible will, but nevertheless it wasnt free from Gods own will. Adams responsible will was one of the all things that worketh after the counsel of Gods own will ! Did you comprehend that ?

 

[DAN P]

That's exactly what Scripture teaches. Revisit post #337.

Also, before a person is regenerated or made Spiritually Alive in New Birth, their own faith of the flesh is nothing but filthy rags in God's Sight Is. 64:6; Rom. 8:8; and they can't hear spiritually which is required to hear the Gospel which is Spiritual 1 Cor. 2:13; Prov. 20:12 !

Hi and your quote in Isa 64:6 is not about faith BUT of RIGHTEOUSNESS 11

So , explain how people were saved fro Adam to Moses , Rom 5:14 ??

So explain how Adam was saved ??

Your OP was THE FALL NECESSARY is full of HOLES !!

The main reason that the FALL WAS NECESSARY was to make man a NEW CREATION at the COMING / PAROUSIA 2 Thess 1:2 and then this NEW CREATION is IN CHRIST or what many believe are PART OF CHRIST and then we will have our ASSIGNED INHERITANCE , Eph 1:11 in the Universe and will Govern Angels , 1 Cor 6:2 !!

dan p

 

[beloved57]

Hi and your quote in Isa 64:6 is not about faith BUT of RIGHTEOUSNESS 11

So , explain how people were saved fro Adam to Moses , Rom 5:14 ??

So explain how Adam was saved ??

Your OP was THE FALL NECESSARY is full of HOLES !!

The main reason that the FALL WAS NECESSARY was to make man a NEW CREATION at the COMING / PAROUSIA 2 Thess 1:2 and then this NEW CREATION is IN CHRIST or what many believe are PART OF CHRIST and then we will have our ASSIGNED INHERITANCE , Eph 1:11 in the Universe and will Govern Angels , 1 Cor 6:2 !!

dan p

Its my OP not hers, do you want to discuss it with me ?

 

[genuineoriginal]

before a person is regenerated or made Spiritually Alive in New Birth, their own faith of the flesh is nothing but filthy rags in God's Sight Is. 64:6;

It is a shame that uneducated idiots keep taking that verse out of context.

When we look at the verse in context, we see that there are two different groups of people being compared to each other, not a single group that represents all of humanity.
I highlighted the two different groups in different colors:

Isaiah 64:4-7 4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.​

While Calvinists are content to be members of the GREEN highlighted group of people, the rest of us aspire to be the YELLOW highlighted group of people.

 

[DAN P]

Its my OP not hers, do you want to discuss it with me ?

Hi go ahead if you want to ?

dan p