Was the fall necessary ?

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
You asked this of Joshua and the answer is no. Joshua believed God's command; it was the men of Shechem who professed to believe, who never did believe, and who perished in their unbelief. (Judges 9)
The text indicates that he chose to serve God.

This is simply a misrepresentation of Calvinist beliefs, that give you an excuse to parrot your Open View of a changeable God.
Liar!

Which of those beliefs do you deny? Which of them does any Calvinist deny?

Thus, I am convinced you and I do not worship the same God at all.
I've said that for years. You are not a Christian by any biblical definition of the word.

You claim:

Hebrews 13:8
So what is it with you Calvinists now, you can't properly use the quote tag any longer?

Hebrews 13:8 and other similar passages are talking about God's character. His righteousness does not change, who God is does not change. That doesn't mean that He can't learn, can't do something new, can't change His mind. The bible explicitly shows God doing all of those things and more, much much more, the greatest of which is that He became a human being and died and then rose from the dead with a glorified human body that He has to this day and will always have from now on.

Calvinists study the Trinity. Open Theism insults and blasphemes Triune God.
You wouldn't know the God of scripture if He came up and kissed your right on the lips!

Do you believe that the God who created all things became a man and died on that cross?

Yes or no!


Clete
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
The text indicates that he chose to serve God.

Joshua believed God, but the text does not say Joshua "chose" to do so.

God chooses all the Sons of God, and after the Holy Spirit gifts them with new life and spiritual eyes and ears to know this truth, they choose to act on that gifted faith in obedient acts as demonstration of being justified by faith alone.

You fail to acknowledge or entertain such theological depths of Holy Scripture, and end up claiming the Bible only "indicates" what Open Theists WANT Scripture to say . . when GOD HAS NOT SAID


Hebrews 13:8 and other similar passages are talking about God's character. His righteousness does not change, who God is does not change. That doesn't mean that He can't learn, can't do something new, can't change His mind.

Immutability is the attribute of Triune God. It is eternal and not subject to change. God is perfect and has no need to change, or learn, or will/purpose any differently. You insult and blaspheme Triune God in your attempts to bring him down to your human level.

The bible explicitly shows God doing all of those things and more, much much more, the greatest of which is that He became a human being and died and then rose from the dead with a glorified human body that He has to this day and will always have from now on.

God the Father didn't and God the Holy Spirit didn't. Only God the Son became flesh and died and resurrected to glory.




Do you believe that the God who created all things became a man and died on that cross?

Yes or no!

Yes. I believe that the Son of God "who created all things became a man and died on that cross."

This Son was the Word of God become flesh; Jesus Christ who possesses the same attributes as the full Godhead. He was God. He is God. He is Eternally God. Hebrews 13:8

Distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, but same in all ways, purpose, and will.

Your false teachers have failed to emphasize these Trinitarian truths in their seduction of your soul.

Sad . . .
 

Nanja

Well-known member
The Fall was necessary within the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ because Christ was to be the firstborn of many brethren Rom 8:28-29


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
​​​​​​​
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Amen Brother ! The Called according to His Purpose Rom. 8:28, identifies with the many Brethren that were Chosen In Union with the "Firstborn" Rom. 8:29 Christ Jesus Eph. 1:4 before the foundation, which also identifies with His Resurrection from the dead in union with those same Brethren.

Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1 Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Therefore the Fall was necessary, because in the Purpose of God, the Elect were already raised together with / in Christ from Everlasting, and also Justified Rom. 8:30, so in time, they must be conformed to His Image and begotten from the dead Spiritually [Born Again] John 3:3 and given Faith Gal. 5:22 to Believe the Truth 2 Thes. 2:13.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Yes i see.. I wanted you to see the emphasis on Gods Justice being satisfied!


Thank You Brother, and rightly so. But I want you to know that I do understand God's Justice being satisfied, and referred to it Rom. 5:17, 19 in my previous post #316, which speaks of His gift of being made Righteous, Justified.

And I do see John Gill's emphasis on God's Justice being satisfied that you're referring to:

-the essential justice of God

-his strict justice

-he is the justifier of him that believes in Jesus

-justice entirely satisfied

-the glory of divine justice is secured and peace with God for men obtained


Also Brother, I count it a great blessing to know that you are concerned that I do understand and see the emphasis on God's Justice being satisfied; along with so many other Spiritual Truths I have learned which are contained in your many excellent threads over the last fifteen years or so.

The Lord Bless you richly !
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Joshua believed God, but the text does not say Joshua "chose" to do so.
Yes, it does Nang! Who are you trying to fool here, yourself?

God chooses all the Sons of God, and after the Holy Spirit gifts them with new life and spiritual eyes and ears to know this truth, they choose to act on that gifted faith in obedient acts as demonstration of being justified by faith alone.
Double talk!

You don't believe that anyone does anything like choosing. You think that because it feels like choosing then it counts as choosing but by any meaningful definition of the word, if one cannot do otherwise, then it was not a choice because there was no real alternative.

At bottom, you don't even think that God can choose! You believe that whatever God chose was the perfect choice and that there was only ever one perfect choice and that God cannot do other than what is perfect and that therefore God could not have done other than what He did or else He'd no longer be perfect.

You fail to acknowledge or entertain such theological depths of Holy Scripture, and end up claiming the Bible only "indicates" what Open Theists WANT Scripture to say . . when GOD HAS NOT SAID
The problem for you is that I directly quoted the passages.

Of course all scripture has to be interpreted by anyone who reads it. The question is whether the methods used to interpret it makes sense. You interpret the scripture in a manner that preserves God's quantitative attributes (i.e. size and power and how much God knows) as well as to preserve your a priori doctrine of immutability. I, on the other hand, interpret the scripture in light of His qualitative attributes (i.e. His character). God is personal, intelligent (i.e. wise), righteous, loving and just. You are forced to subordinate these attributes in order to preserve concepts of God that were born in the mind's of pagan Greek philosophers and are thereby forced to not only say such mindless things as "the text does not say Joshua chose" when it plainly does and to turn whole passages on their head and explain how they mean the absolute opposite of what they say and to just completely ignore when the bible shows God doing things like deciding not to do that which He said He would do (i.e. repenting).

Immutability is the attribute of Triune God. It is eternal and not subject to change. God is perfect and has no need to change, or learn, or will/purpose any differently. You insult and blaspheme Triune God in your attempts to bring him down to your human level.
I'm not trying to do anything! You think that I wrote the bible? You think I'm making it up when I quote the bible where it states as plain as day that the Logos became flesh? I didn't write that! The apostle John wrote that under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself!

It isn't me you have a quarel with, but God! Not only did He inspire the writing of the scripture that tells us God changed in a dramatic and permanent way but your idiotic doctrine teaches you that every word of my "bringing God down to my human level" was predestined by God Himself to be done by me to His glory! So according to you, if I'm a blasphemer, it's God who made me that and I am utterly incapable of being anything else.

God the Father didn't and God the Holy Spirit didn't. Only God the Son became flesh and died and resurrected to glory.
Exactly!

Are you saying that the second person of the Trinity is mutable (i.e. NOT immutable)?

Yes. I believe that the Son of God "who created all things became a man and died on that cross."
Then how is that not a dramatic and permanent change? It's not some sort of minor or insignificant change. It's a humongous alteration in the form of God's very existence. Prior to the incarnation God did not have a body. Before the incarnation He had never felt hunger or physical pain nor had it ever been possible to tempt Him. Before the incarnation God had never suckled from His mother's breast or grown and matured into a man. Before the incarnation God had never had His face wetted by tears. Before the incarnation God had never before been a human being!

In what universe is that not change?

What you are now forced to do is to come up with some wack-a-doodle nonsense about hypostatic unions and what ever other convoluted thing rather than just simply taking the bible to mean what it plainly states, that God became a man, dwelt among us, died and rose from the dead! But instead, you want to figure out some complex way to have your cake and eat it too but it doesn't work! God cannot be immutable and become anything.

This Son was the Word of God become flesh; Jesus Christ who possesses the same attributes as the full Godhead. He was God. He is God. He is Eternally God. Hebrews 13:8
Thus He is not immutable in the classical (i.e. Calvinist) sense of the word.

Distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, but same in all ways, purpose, and will.

Your false teachers have failed to emphasize these Trinitarian truths in their seduction of your soul.

Sad . . .
Yeah sure, except that I fully embrace them and have never said a word to undermine them anywhere other than in your own broken Calvinist mind.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Spiritual life is only regenerated in sinners through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit of Christ.

The Lord Jesus said that His words are Spirit and they are life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
(Jn.6:63).​

Did the Jews who heard His words receive spiritual life just by hearing His words or did they have to believe them?
 

Nanja

Well-known member
The Lord Jesus said that His words are Spirit and they are life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
(Jn.6:63).​

Did the Jews who heard His words receive spiritual life just by hearing His words or did they have to believe them?


The only kind of hearing, whether they be jew or Gentile, that brings Spiritual Life are those who have been given ears to Hear.

Prov. 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.


But the natural man, [a spiritually dead sinner], is uncircumcized in heart and ears !

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Thank You Brother, and rightly so. But I want you to know that I do understand God's Justice being satisfied, and referred to it Rom. 5:17, 19 in my previous post #316, which speaks of His gift of being made Righteous, Justified.

And I do see John Gill's emphasis on God's Justice being satisfied that you're referring to:

-the essential justice of God

-his strict justice

-he is the justifier of him that believes in Jesus

-justice entirely satisfied

-the glory of divine justice is secured and peace with God for men obtained


Also Brother, I count it a great blessing to know that you are concerned that I do understand and see the emphasis on God's Justice being satisfied; along with so many other Spiritual Truths I have learned which are contained in your many excellent threads over the last fifteen years or so.

The Lord Bless you richly !

Bless you Sister! I'm so indebted to God's Grace to have your fellowship in God's Truth!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I believe so, absolutely. John 3:3

Dead men cannot resurrect themselves back to life; nor can dead men hear or see.

WRONG!

Here we see how people are made alive or quickened:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"
(Eph.2:5).​

When a person is made alive together with Christ then at that time he possesses eternal life because the life of the Lord Jesus is eternal. And this fact is stated here:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"
(1 Jn.5:11).​

When a person is made alive together with Christ then he possesses eternal life and this life is in the Son. And in order to receive this eternal life a person must first believe:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
(Jn.6:47).​

So we can see that when a person is made alive he receives eternal life and this life is a result of faith.

Therefore, it is obvious that the Calvinists are in error when they teach that life precedes faith, or that regeneration precedes faith.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
So you think that regeneration to life precedes faith?


That's what Scripture says.

The only kind of faith that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth.

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Rom. 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I believe Only God chooses who will be redeemed in Christ or not.

John 15:16-19
John 15:16-19 is NOT about salvation, but about a specific service that God required of them.

Joh 15:16 KJV Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
 
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