THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL
- Thread starter DougE
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Hello
John 3:18 has to be looked at in relationship to John 3:16 because what is required is to believe on the name of Jesus. There is nothing as yet in regard to the cross.
Jesus did not preach the cross as Paul did. In Matthew 20:28 Jesus is saying that he would die for the transgressions Israel committed under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15). Paul says all are freely justified by the redemption of Christ.
John 15:5 and Ephesians 5:30 can not be said to be the same. John 15:6 says any branch will be cast into the fire that is not fruitful; this refers to Israel being fruitful to enter the kingdom on earth.
The church is not Israel and is not under any covenant but rather is a new creature (Galatians 6:15); in Christ Jew and Greek are one and the middle partition separating them is done away with (Ephesians 2:14).
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I believe that you meant that Jesus did NOT preach the cross as Paul did.
Hello
Right...I did edit it.. Jesus only spoke of his shed blood and resurrection for the new testament and to be raised to sit on David's throne.
bibleverse2
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Note that the body of Christ has been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24).
(See post #99 above)
So the new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) is part of New Covenant Israel (Hebrews 12:24).
(See post #22 above)
Also, all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29), and Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7), so the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the Church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
bibleverse2
New member
Note that He did (Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25).
Regarding not being fruitful, note that John 15:2a is the same idea as what Paul preached (Romans 2:6-8). That is, works are required for ultimate salvation (2 Corinthians 5:9, James 2:24).
Regarding John 15:6, that refers to a separate problem: apostasy, which Paul also warned against (2 Timothy 2:12b).
For, similarly, Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even true Christians, who have truly repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).
One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).
This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).
Note that the Church is under the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15) which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).
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Note: That is incorrect. That is not what Paul is discussing in that passage.
No, it isn't.
Heb 8:7-11 KJV For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Just throw the Bible in a blender and see what comes out...
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Hello
Jesus spoke of his blood for the new testament for Israel in Matthew 26:28
Paul speaks of God also using that same shed blood to justify all freely through faith in that blood in Romans 3:24-25
2 Corinthians 5:9 says nothing about losing salvation but rather about pleasing God and about appearing before the judgment seat for reward 2 Corinthians 5:10
James 2:24 is written to Hebrews about being justified by works under the covenant made with Abraham in Genesis 17. This is not justification unto eternal life which happened by Abraham believing God in Genesis 15:6
Hebrews 6 is not speaking to us about losing salvation. Hebrews is speaking of the new testament and the better priesthood for Israel. Hebrews 6 is talking about Jews reverting back to the levitcal sacrifices.
Sure there is!
Haven't you read Romans 11?
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. - Romans 11:22-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:22-29&version=NKJV
bibleverse2
New member
Note that 2 Corinthians 5:9 makes no reference to reward, but to being "accepted" in itself.
Similarly, the future, judgment seat of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) will not be only for rewards (Matthew 24:48-51; 2 Corinthians 5:11).
For note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).
Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
Also, even if Christians do continue in faith and good works of faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).
Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist, and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).
Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).
Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).
All of this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).
And all of this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right things (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).
Also, Jesus Christ is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, then it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).
Hello
Sorry it took so long to reply.
I said "2 Corinthians 5:9 says nothing about losing salvation but rather about pleasing God and about appearing before the judgment seat for reward 2 Corinthians 5:10"
You said "Note that 2 Corinthians 5:9 makes no reference to reward, but to being "accepted" in itself."
But verse 10 does and they are connected by "For" which starts verse 10.
You said "Similarly, the future, judgment seat of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) will not be only for rewards (Matthew 24:48-51; 2 Corinthians 5:11)."
Matthews 24 you cited is not given to the body of Christ but Israel to be faithful to enter the kingdom.
2 Corinthians 5:11 is still about rewards and giving account (Romans 14:12) but sin has been dealt with and salvation is not lost (1 Corinthians 3:15)
The Apostles preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Paul preached the death burial and resurrection Of Jesus Christ.
bibleverse2
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Hello.
No problem. It took 10 days for God to give a reply to Jeremiah (Jeremiah 42:7).
But the "For" does not negate the fact that even some Christians will not be ultimately accepted, because of the "bad" in 2 Corinthians 5:10, and the "terror" in 2 Corinthians 5:11.
For example, Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that even some true Christians, who have truly been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).
One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.
Note that there is no such dichotomy (see post #81 above).
That is why Jesus Christ spoke specifically of His "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17), which is His body (Colossians 1:18), before He spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future Tribulation, by which time the Church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the Tribulation will be the Church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and there are no believers in Jesus Christ outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the Church who will be in the Tribulation could include most of the Christians alive today, whether Jews or Gentiles, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).
Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to Christians (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus Christ's mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to Christians (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the mistaken pre-tribulation-rapture view admits, for example, that John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to the Church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to the Church today.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:15, note that it refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17) if that work is done in a faulty manner by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20) and the glorying in human leaders of the Church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21) instead of focusing on Jesus Christ Himself and the everlasting wisdom of His Word the Holy Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a Christian, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, then he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). For he will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).
bibleverse2
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Note that both the Apostles and the Apostle Paul preached the Gospel of the Kingdom (Romans 14:17), just as both preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:24, Acts 2:31).
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Paul said that the kingdom of God was NOT "meat and drink" (Romans 14:17).... but Jesus said that they would be eating and drinking in the kingdom.
Luk 22:30 KJV That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The word "kingdom" is being used TWO different ways.
bibleverse2
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That's right, but both ways are still part of the one and only gospel of our salvation (Romans 1:16).
See also post #64 above.
bibleverse2
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(Going back to older posts in this thread which have not been replied to yet.)
As was Paul, with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25).
For in the Bible, one of the differences between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
As was Paul, with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25).
For in the Bible, one of the differences between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
Hello
It is Israel who is waiting for the coming of Christ for the restitution of all things ( 1 Peter 1:5 Acts 3:19). At Christ's coming he will bring in the salvation of the kingdom for Israel, and will fulfill the new covenant in which he will forgive all their iniquities. We have forgiveness of sin now (Colossians 1:14).
The body of Christ is looking for the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23) and being with him.
bibleverse2
New member
Note that there is no dichotomy between Israel and the BOC (Romans 11:17b).
See post #81 above.
For it is the BOC which is waiting for the coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7) and the restitution of all things (Romans 8:21-25).
Note that we have forgiveness of sin now only through the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Matthew 26:28).
See also post #22 above.
Amen.
And note that no one in the Bible preached any other gospel (Galatians 1:9).