Lon
Well-known member
Agreed. Isaiah 9:6
Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
You were being disrespectful, and were given an infraction for being disrespectful. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with TOL's position.
You were not given an infraction for disagreeing. You were given an infraction for being disrespectful.
I honestly don't care how deep your thoughts go when it comes to your attitude. If you're disrespectful, you'll get an infraction. You were, and so you did.
And this is question begging, not to mention an appeal to emotion.
Don't bring up your infraction again, or you'll get another infraction for being disruptive.
[MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION]
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Lon
Well-known member
He is called "Comforter." With God, titles and names are interchangeable. "Counselor." John 14:26 "Holy Spirit" (title, description, name). 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Teacher" etc. Since the Lord Jesus Christ calls the Spirit "Him" (autos) it'd be a good thing to take our Lord at His word as well. John 16:7-8 While sometime a 'neuter' case, such shouldn't be confused, as are JW's that such means 'no gender.' The pronoun is personal and John gives masculine gender to the Holy Spirit here. "He" is important thus these names must be recognized as names for Him.
Think how awful it would be to claim the Holy Spirit is an 'it' if He is indeed and genuinely a being. It'd be a magnificent slight against Him! That alone is reason enough to be avoided. Err on the side of love of God and all that is His IF you must err! -Lon
-Lon
NWL
Active member
No Emmanuel is one of the name Jesus posses, it simply does not mean what trinitarian cliams it means. Jesus is not called Emmanuel (God with us) in the sense that he is God and was with man, but rather, that Gods prescene was with him and the people whom he was among.
No, since I'm clearing speaking to a trinitarian and am therefore using langauge with their thoughts in mind, as usual you assume. Leave it up to me to define what I mean by what I say and never assume.
You only make yourself look like a fool when you twist and claim I mean things that I've never expressed and then go on to waffle questions to me regarding things I've never said. Where did I claim Jesus is God the father for you to ask "what Trinitarian has ever claimed that the name, Emmanuel, implies that Jesus is God the Father"? I never claimed Jesus is God the Father, you could litreally argue with yourself.
Why would JW's claim that? Again the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us" relates to Gods presence and acceptance was with Jesus and for his people. When John the baptiser was born his Father said said under inspiration "Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has visited and redeemed his people" (Luke 1:68), had YHWH actaully visited his people upon the birth of John? Nope, yet the statement still stands and relates to Gods prescene being with John and his family. Likewise Jesus being called Emmanuel (God with us) isn't saying Jesus as G-god is with his people, but rather, that YHWH was with his people through Jesus.
NWL
Active member
The question was what is the HS name, you didn't list any persoanl names.
Teacher isn't a personal name, comforter isn't a personal name, counselor isn't a proper name. Listing attributes, titles or qualities are hardly personal names. Jesus is a personal name, Yahweh is a personal name.
We all know what a proper name is and what is not a proper name, again, Keypurr was asking what the HS personal name was, does he have one or doesn't he?
NWL
Active member
The examples given were epithets, not proper names.
For example, an epithets of Jesus is teacher, shepherd, savior, the lamb, son of man. These epithets are not to be confused with proper names of the Son of God, such as Jesus or Emmanuel.
A ten-year-old can tell the difference between a proper name and an epithet. It's ridiculous that Trinitarians have to resort to such blatant denial of facts for them to be content in their beliefs.
Well, of course we know that Gabriel wasn't referring to himself when he said "The Lord is with you"......... because of context!
What context? He was there AS A MESSENGER of GOD!
Here, you've chopped off again, and failed to post the preceding lines!
Luke 1
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
WRONG!!!
You've left out something important again.
Here is Luke 1.
Circumcision of John the Baptist
59 So it was, on the eighth day, that they came to circumcise the child; and they would have called him by the name of his father, Zacharias.
60 His mother answered and said, “No; he shall be called John.”
61 But they said to her, “There is no one among your relatives who is called by this name.”
62 So they made signs to his father—what he would have him called.
63 And he asked for a writing tablet, and wrote, saying, “His name is John.” So they all marveled.
64 Immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue loosed, and he spoke, praising God.
65 Then fear came on all who dwelt around them; and all these sayings were discussed throughout all the hill country of Judea.
66 And all those who heard them kept them in their hearts, saying, “What kind of child will this be?” And the hand of the Lord was with him.
Zacharias’ Prophecy
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69
And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70
As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71
That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73
The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74
To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75
In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
76
“And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77
To give knowledge of salvation to His people
By the remission of their sins,
78
Through the tender mercy of our God,
With which the [j]Dayspring from on high [k]has visited us;
79
To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”
80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.
Zachariah was talking about Jesus in that beginning of his prophecy.....
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,........ supports John 1.
I read, and believe what the Bible says!
I was talking about John 1!
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1)
.....is supported by ....
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people (Luke 1)
We beheld God's glory when he came to us as the Son of the Father (God).
SO......in that context, "GOD WITH US," from Matthew 1, is given literally! God was physically with man.
TADA!
Matthew 1, supports John 1 and Luke 1.
Boy, see what I mean? I'm simply quoting the Bible!
You can't debate with the Scriptures - you'll never win!
You should humbly accept how the Scriptures patiently corrects you.
Be glad that it reaches out to you.....and showing you...... that what you believe is
false teaching.
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NWL
Active member
Well, of course we know that Gabriel wasn't referring to himself when he said "The Lord is with you"......... because of context!
What context? He was there AS A MESSENGER of GOD!
Here, you've chopped off again, and failed to post the preceding lines!
Luke 1
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Precisely! Despite the statement of "the Lord is with you", YHWH was in fact not there, he was simply there through Gabriel.
Likewise, Jesus is called Emmanuel which means "God with us" or "God [is] with us". This statement does imply that Jesus is God any more than it proves Gabriel was God since the meaning of the name Emmanuel relates to God symbolic presence rather than his literal being being there.
Again, my point is basic, the meaning of the name Emmanuel doesn't mean "God is literally with us", it is trinitarians assumption that the name means that since as pointed out, the name has a verity of interpretations.
Wrong in what sense? Had God visited his people at the birth of John?
Who's saying that God was there physically??? Who's claiming that?
Supernaturally....He is everywhere. He doesn't need Gabriel to be there, but He'd sent Gabriel to deliver a personal message to Mary! Big difference!
Luke 1
28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
"The Lord is with you," is a figure of speech to emphasize that Mary is highly favored by God.
Better read how Luke and John both tied up with Matthew 1 - and is presented to you neatly.
I don't think you read Matthew 1 well enough. You should read it again.
NWL
Active member
Who's saying that God was there physically??? Who's claiming that?
You, by implication according to your remarks at the end of your post 542. You quoted Matt 1:23 Jesus being Emmanuel and "God with us" and stated, "Jesus, is God Himself (as a human)". Do you not believe the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us" indicates that Jesus is the "God" in the definition "God with us"? If your answer is a yes then it's you who claims God was physically there. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The traditional teaching of Gods omnipresence is not found anywhere in scripture, God is not everywhere, many people confuse Gods all-seeing ability with omnipresence. God has a dwelling place, if God was everywhere then anywhere would be his dwelling place, the opposite is found in scripture.
(1 Kings 8:43) "..may you then listen from the heavens, your dwelling place.."
(Hebrews 9:24) "..For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf.."
Agreed.
And that the interpretation that many have with the name Emmanuel, "God with us" when applied to Jesus is a figure of speech to emphasize that Jesus is highly favored by God.
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NWL
Active member
I fully understand the reasons why trinitarians believe Emmanuel litreally meant God was with us in the sense Jesus was God with his people, don't be so niave to think I don't. You tell me I don't know how to reason yet you're the one who hasn't even reason agaisnt my position.
What reasoning have you shown why my -an many others- an interpretation that Emmanuel means "God with us" in the sense that his non-literal presence was with his people? Please show us why my interpretation should be ruled out, if you can't then it's a viable interpretation.
Why is it people who know the language better than we ever will have stated the same thing as I, that the "visit" refers to the YHWH turining his attention to his people again rather than a litreal visitation.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Visited.—Better, looked upon, regarded. The four centuries that had passed since the last of the prophets are thought of as a time during which the “face of the Lord” had been turned away from Israel. Now He looked on it again, not to visit them (as we more commonly use the word) for their offences, but to deliver.
Pulpit Comm
He hath visited; that is, after some four hundred years of silence and absence, the Holy One of Israel had again come to his people.
That is because you don't read what is written.
7djengo7
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By the word, "God", you don't mean God the Father when you say "Nothing about the name implies Jesus was God"?? Then whom do you mean by the word, "God", there??
Once again, you just blatantly contradicted the Bible:
VS
keypurr
Well-known member
Lon my faith has not changed at all. I love to ask questions and study them. But you never understood my words for you do not see the depth of my understanding. I have been preaching a spirit son, the express image , for about six years now and you never studied it to my knowledge. Jesus is not the WORD of John 1;,the SPIRIT Son that dwelled in him is the word that BECAME flesh. I will always only have one God, the Father. I see Jesus as the Christ of God, in him dwells a form of god, the express image, the Miltha.
Because I see this folks think I am out of line with established churches and to be truthfull I am, for I do not see God as being comfortable in church. God is in US, we are the Church, not the building or the establishment. We are to reflect the LOVE God has given us. that is what I try to do Lon. For me to live is Christ but Christ is not my God, he is my Lord.
NWL
Active member
It gets boring explaining the same thing to you over and over. Again, the person to whom I was speaking was a trinitarian, thus when I speak I used/use langauge that fits their understanding for the sake of the arguement. So when I said "Nothing about the name [Emmanuel] implies Jesus was God" I was using the term "God" in the sense of Jesus being God of the trinity.
Again, I've already shown from the bible how God visiting or being with his people doesn't litreally mean a physical presence, rather, the visiting/being with is in regards to Gods attention and favor.
Take Matthews words when he states when speaking to God "naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me"(Matthew 25:36). God never visited Matthew in prison, he did visited him in the sense of his attention and presece however, when he sent an Angel to free him for jail.
Likewise when Luke 1:68 was being written God had not litreally visited John and his family, he visited them in the sense of turning his attention to them and favouring them. The visiting is simply a figure of speech.