Do you believe in predestination ?

JudgeRightly

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"By their fruits you shall know them." (Matt. 7:16)

Maria Valtorta produced good fruit. An evil tree cannot produce good fruit (Matt. 7:18.)

God predestined that those who would put their faith in Him would have eternal life.

He didn't predestine individuals. He predestined groups, just like airlines predestine airplanes to go to their destinations, while not predestine-ing the passengers.
 

marke

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The following brief extract from Maria Valtorta's Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, is a Divine explanation of predestination, given by Christ to Valtorta, in response to her own interior reflections on this perplexing subject:
The woman is wrong.
 

Soul

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God predestined that those who would put their faith in Him would have eternal life.

Your interpretation of Paul's writings on predestination implies a passivity in man in which their actions have no impact on them, because they've already been chosen by God for glory, and thus the supposed requirement of faith in Him, including obedience to Him, reparations, etc., is unnecessary. Does God force all that's unnecessary as well?
 

JudgeRightly

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Your interpretation of

Has nothing to do with this.

Paul's writings on predestination

Are about groups of people, not individuals.

implies a passivity in man in which their actions have no impact on them,

A passenger has no impact on which plane they get on?

because they've already been chosen by God for glory,

This is called "begging the question."

It means that you're assuming that your conclusion is true without it being established, in order to establish it as true.

It's a logical fallacy. Don't use logical fallacies to support your position. It's like building your house on sand.

No specific individual has been "chosen by God for glory."

God chose the group "us in Him" "to be holy and without blame before Him in love." He chose that group "before the foundation of the world," predestining that group "to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His gracewhich He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:3-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:3-14&version=NKJV

It's not individuals, but the group.

How does one get in that group? How does one get "in Him"? How does one become one of the "us in Him"?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NKJV

and thus the supposed requirement of faith in Him,

Is still required by God for God to save someone. He will not include someone in the group called "us in Him" if he does not put his faith in God.

including

Only faith in God is required by God to be saved by God.

obedience to Him, reparations, etc., is unnecessary.

Correct.

Does God force all that's unnecessary as well?

Man cannot save himself through any of those things, and not even faith merits salvation. However, God requires that a man have faith as a prerequisite to God saving Him, a recognition that he cannot save himself and a trust that God will save him.
 

beloved57

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@JudgeRightly

No specific individual has been "chosen by God for glory."

False statement, a bunch of individuals have been chosen by God for Glory !

God chose the group "us in Him" "to be holy and without blame before Him in love." He chose that group "before the foundation of the world," predestining that group "to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

The Group is a group of individuals, the Church. Its comprised of individuals. 1 Cor 12:18


But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

The very word group denotes individuals:

any collection or assemblage of persons or things; cluster; aggregation:a group of protesters; a remarkable group of paintings.
a number of persons or things ranged or considered together as being related in some way.

Now what are persons ?

a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

An Individual human being !

So to say God doesnt choose individuals to Glory since He chose a group is nonsense and a contradiction, for what is a group of people but a group of individuals.
 

JudgeRightly

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You need to start using the Quote button on the posts of those you reply to.

False statement,

Saying it doesn't make it so.

a bunch of individuals have been chosen by God for Glory!

Such as? Name names, provide references.

Simply making an assertion doesn't make it true.

The Group is a group of individuals,

Yeah, so what? It doesn't change the fact that it's the GROUP that is chosen by God for glory, not the specific individuals.

[T]he Church [is] comprised of individuals.

And?

1 Cor 12:18
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

The very next few words make my point:

"in the body"

What body?

The Body of Christ.

Those who are in the Body of Christ are predestined for glory.

Those who are not in the Body of Christ are not predestined for glory.

But that DOES NOT MEAN that the latter cannot become the former. In other words, just because someone is not in the Body of Christ today doesn't mean he cannot become part of the Body of Christ tomorrow (or at any point in the future)

The very word group denotes individuals:

any collection or assemblage of persons or things; cluster; aggregation:a group of protesters; a remarkable group of paintings.
a number of persons or things ranged or considered together as being related in some way.

Now what are persons ?

a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

An Individual human being !

Don't insult my intelligence. I know what these words mean.

The point remains:

It's not the specific individual that is being predestined, and the definitions of the words don't change that.

So to say God doesn't choose individuals to Glory

You have yet to provide even one verse that shows individuals (not a group of individuals) predestined to glory.

since He chose a group is nonsense and a contradiction,

Appeal to the stone.
Saying it doesn't make it so.

for what is a group of people but a group of individuals.

Duh.

But the group of individuals can be added to, and the individuals who were formerly not part of that group of individuals can become part of that group of individuals, so that they receive the same benefits as the rest of those individuals who are in that group, where before they would not have been able to receive those benefits, because they were not in that group of individuals.

Thus, the plane called "The Body of Christ" is predestined for heaven, and a person must become a passenger on that plane in order for him to go to heaven.

It doesn't mean that God predestined a person to get on that plane, it just means that whoever gets on that plane will go to heaven. Hence, "predestined the group, not the specific individual."
 

Soul

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It means that you're assuming that your conclusion is true without it being established, in order to establish it as true.

It's a logical fallacy. Don't use logical fallacies to support your position. It's like building your house on sand.

I explained the implication your beliefs pose, which isn't an unsupported assumption, and thus I haven't used a logical fallacy.

But the group of individuals can be added to, and the individuals who were formerly not part of that group of individuals can become part of that group of individuals, so that they receive the same benefits as the rest of those individuals who are in that group, where before they would not have been able to receive those benefits, because they were not in that group of individuals.

Thus, the plane called "The Body of Christ" is predestined for heaven, and a person must become a passenger on that plane in order for him to go to heaven.

It doesn't mean that God predestined a person to get on that plane, it just means that whoever gets on that plane will go to heaven. Hence, "predestined the group, not the specific individual."

Then I'm surprised you disagree with the excerpt from Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans on predestination (#298). Which part(s) do you view as wrong?
 

JudgeRightly

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I explained the implication your beliefs pose, which isn't an unsupported assumption, and thus I haven't used a logical fallacy.

Alright, looks like there was a misunderstanding on my part. I apologize.

Allow me to readdress your post:

implies a passivity in man in which their actions have no impact on them, because they've already been chosen by God for glory, and thus the supposed requirement of faith in Him, including obedience to Him, reparations, etc., is unnecessary.

Taking a look at this with the above in mind, this is still incorrect. Unless I'm mistaken (it is possible):

YOUR position, not mine, claims that a specific individual is chosen, predestined, by God for glory.

YOUR position is that obedience to God is necessary for salvation.

No?

MY position is that God saves those who humble themselves and recognize that they CANNOT save themselves through any work of their own (obedience), and that their life is required for reparations (and thus nothing else is of enough value that they can provide for reparation between them and God.

Thus, the "implication" you have provided isn't based on my position, it's based on yours.

MY position is that the only thing that man can do in order to be saved is to, as Paul says:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NKJV

And:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

Then I'm surprised you disagree with the excerpt from Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans on predestination (#298).

You shouldn't be.

Which part(s) do you view as wrong?

These parts:

All men without exception are predestined to grace, since [Christ] died for all.

Christ died for all, yes, but that doesn't mean "all without exception" will be graced out.

Those who do not accept Christ as their savior before they die do not get a second chance.

Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory.

Man cannot earn his way to heaven, not even his faith in God merits salvation, let alone being faithful to some law, which man cannot keep anyways without violating it.

Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward.

Again, living "as a just man" will not earn you anything, let alone salvation, since, as Paul said:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, - Romans 3:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:23&version=NKJV

And:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. - Romans 7:7-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7-12&version=NKJV

God knows from eternity those who are destined for glory before they are born into life—that is, "predestined".

No, He doesn't. There is no verse that says this.

Also, life begins at conception, not at birth. God can know someone before they are born, and the Bible says He does, but it NEVER says that He knows them before they exist.

There are those who are predestined, certainly.

Groups are predestined, not specific individuals.

And God knows them before time [even] exists

God is not outside of time.

[And God knows them before time [even] exists] for them.

Scripture doesn't say this. Again, it says He knows people before they are born, not before they exist.

God gives them what He gives to all. But they use the gifts of God with justice, and hence they win the future and eternal glory by their [own] free will.

Once again: MAN CANNOT EARN HIS SALVATION. He cannot obtain "eternal glory" by working for it.

And our (read: Christians') glory is in Christ.

God knows that they will reach this eternal glory.

No, He doesn't, because no man can obtain eternal glory on his own.

God knows. He rejoices in anticipation to know that this creature will reach glory; just as He suffers in anticipation to know that this other creature will, voluntarily, reach damnation.

God does not know the final destination of anyone until they either die in their rejection of him, or put their faith in Him.

For where there's life, there's hope: Even a sinner laying on his death bead can repent and turn to Christ just before he passes.

Those who are already dead are either in hell or heaven based on their rejection or acceptance, respectively, of Him while they were yet living.

But in no way does He intervene to force the free choice of any creature so that it may arrive where God wants all to arrive: in Heaven.

True, God does not force free creatures to choose Him, but those who do not will not end up in heaven, but the lake of fire.

Certainly the creature's correspondence with Divine help increases its capacity to will. Because God all the more pours Himself out, as a man loves Him in truth: that is, with a charity of actions, and not [just] of words.

This sounds like new-age gobbledygook.

And again: certainly, the more a man lives as a just man, the more God also communicates with and manifests Himself to him:

Only if the man has repented towards God and put his faith in Him.

Otherwise:

But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. - Isaiah 64:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah64:6&version=NKJV

an anticipation of that knowledge of God which is the bliss of the saints in Heaven; and from this knowledge comes an increase of the capacity to want [will] to be perfect. But again and always, man is free with his will, and, if after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.



To conclude: God knows—from eternity—those who are the future eternal inhabitants of Heaven.

No, He doesn't.

But man, with his free will, must want [will] to reach Heaven

Desire won't get one to heaven.

by using well the supernatural helps which the Eternal Father gives to each of His creatures.

Man cannot earn his way to heaven.

And this [must he do] even to his last breath

It doesn't matter how hard a man tries, he cannot do enough good works to earn his way to heaven.

whatever the extraordinary gifts he has received,

Are meaningless without trusting in Christ for salvation.

and [whatever] the degrees of perfection he has reached.

As Isaiah said:

But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. - Isaiah 64:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah64:6&version=NKJV

Remember: no one has ever truly arrived, until his "walk" is finished.

Wrong.

No one CAN arrive at perfection.

That's why we must place our trust in Christ, because IN HIM we are complete, not because we are or can become perfect, but because HE IS perfect.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV

That is, no one is sure of having merited glory, until his time has ended, and immortality has begun.

False.

One can be sure of his salvation, because Christ surely completed His work on the Cross, and our faith is in Him, not in our own doings.

— Jesus

Attributing to Christ what He did not say is blasphemy. This is why I reject this excerpt as "a Divine explanation of predestination, given by Christ to Valtorta." We have Christ's words in the Bible. He did not say any of what you quoted from Valtorta. You would benefit from reading the verse just prior to Colossians 2:9-10, above, which reads thusly:

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. - Colossians 2:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:8&version=NKJV

I know I'm not.

And so your "knowing" that you're not means you're not?

Not even Jesus claimed that His own testimony was valid on it's own. He held to His own standard of "two or three witnesses establishes a matter." Just because you say "I know I'm not wrong" doesn't mean you aren't, especially when others are telling you otherwise.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I can't remember what we might have disagreed on, but I can't argue with this. :)
I was attempting to express my interpretation of a thought experiment which you proposed. My initial attempt (which wasn't concrete enough I don't think):
Here is my now revised take on your thought experiment, correcting for a possible petitio principii in my prior:
[(1)] A possesses the power to exhaustively control B's circumstances.​
[(2)] A reserves their power to do so.​
[(3)] A informs B what B will freely choose to do, within a specific circumstance that A arranges.​
Does B have a choice?​
Yes.
And so here now was my attempt at an improvement (now also with new coordinating references):
Imagine Alexandra has complete power over the circumstances of Barry.(1) Imagine that Barry is an 'experimental' personality, loves to try new things, an 'early adopter' and adventurous. Now consider that Alexandra provides Barry with the circumstances that make experimenting easy for him to do.(2) If he wishes to experiment, then he is completely free to do it.

Now say that Alexandra promises Barry that he will when she gives him the chance, experiment.(3)

Barry decides that under these circumstances, that he will not experiment!

That is not what happened when the Lord Jesus promised Peter that he would deny Him three times before dawn. Was Peter free to choose otherwise? Was Barry? Alexandra had made his conditions very tempting! But Peter's conditions were kind of working against him. It wasn't like he was just volunteering information, he was interrogated.
Thanks for the opportunity. :e4e:
 
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Stripe

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I was attempting to express my interpretation of a thought experiment which you proposed. My initial attempt (which wasn't concrete enough I don't think): And so here now was my attempt at an improvement (now also with new coordinating references): Thanks for the opportunity. :e4e:
I don't think the thought experiment needs a lot of formalization.

Determinism and freedom are utterly incompatible. All the formalism needs to go into disguising explanations that they are compatible.
 

Stripe

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For example, a determinist is presented with the following:

God puts vanilla and chocolate ice cream in front of a man and tells him that he will choose chocolate. Can the man choose vanilla?

The determinist will do anything but answer the question.
 

Idolater

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For example, a determinist is presented with the following:

God puts vanilla and chocolate ice cream in front of a man and tells him that he will choose chocolate. Can the man choose vanilla?

The determinist will do anything but answer the question.
Right. So my only inclusion to your scenario is that you really, really like chocolate ice cream. God gives you the choice, but says, "I know you, you're My child, and I'm telling you, you're going to choose the chocolate."

So are you free to choose vanilla? Sure. Will you?
 

JudgeRightly

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Right. So my only inclusion to your scenario is that you really, really like chocolate ice cream. God gives you the choice, but says, "I know you, you're My child, and I'm telling you, you're going to choose the chocolate."

So are you free to choose vanilla? Sure. Will you?

Nope. I pick option C, Mint flavored!

In all seriousness though:

In the Calvinist view, it's not possible to pick vanilla, whether you like chocolate or not, or how much you like it. It's "what you WILL DO."
 

Stripe

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Right. So my only inclusion to your scenario is that you really, really like chocolate ice cream. God gives you the choice, but says, "I know you, you're My child, and I'm telling you, you're going to choose the chocolate."

So are you free to choose vanilla? Sure. Will you?
That would be adding to the scenario.

Sure, we know that for those who love God, they will tend to act in a manner that they think would please Him. People who hate Him might be even more predictable.

However, in the general scenario, the choice is always up to the man.
 

Idolater

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Nope. I pick option C, Mint flavored!

In all seriousness though:

In the Calvinist view, it's not possible to pick vanilla, whether you like chocolate or not, or how much you like it. It's "what you WILL DO."
Yes. But I'm exploring the question of whether or not predestination and free will are truthfully, logically mutually exclusive, not whether Calvinism's true. I reject Calvinism, but my modification of @Stripe 's thought experiment is not Calvinism, it is only logical examination of his idea.
 
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