Do you believe in predestination ?

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Craig goes on to write:

This much we know of those elected: there was no holiness and no righteous standing so that they might live in the unmediated presence of God. Isn’t this the purpose of salvation? ... to bring a people into His unmediated presence by the redemptive work of the Son of God, Jesus Christ? (Jn.14.3; 17.24; Re.21.3) Now there are some things hard to understand in the word of God. For example, omniscience and foreknowledge are not the same things, yet so many of us treat them as if they are. Omniscience, like omnipresence, omnipotence, is an attribute of God. An attribute describes for us something of what God is like. Omni- from the Latin omnis, meaning all or universally. God is all-knowing, present in all places at one time, and all-powerful. However, foreknowledge and election refer to acts of God. I believe the statements, ‘God has predestinated that believers shall be saved,’ and, ‘God foreknew who they are that would believe,’ is a direct result of confusing God’s attribute of omniscience with His act that is called foreknowledge. That God comprehends all things at once, that He knows all things, that He knows from eternity the beginning from the end is true. (Is.46.10; Jn.16.30; 21.17) We do not deny that God is omniscient, but omniscience isn’t an act. In other words there is no intent in knowing. However, to foreknow is to act. God acts positively toward those he foreknows. This foreknowledge is when He sets His special thoughts upon someone. Therefore it can be said that omniscience differs from foreknowledge as a thought does from a deed, and this deed by God to foreknow is by His grace. Grace is the moving cause of foreknowledge. As a matter of fact grace is the moving cause of both foreknowledge and election. God by His grace set His mind specially upon one (foreknowledge) to choose him (election) in Jesus Christ to be saved. 1Pe 1:2, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (cf. Ro.11.5) G-R-A-C-E: the absolutely arbitrary, unmerited, loving favor of God bestowed upon those foreknown and elected. By now hopefully we understand better that foreknowledge isn’t determined by the foreknown, but by the Foreknower; that, election isn’t determined by the elected, but by the Elector; and that,predestination isn’t determined by the predestinated, but by the Predestinator.
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marke

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Craig goes on to write:
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How much about us did God foreknow? That we would be born? That we would choose to receive the word of God when enlightened by the Holy Spirit? If so, then we can understand why election is based upon God's foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Craig goes on to write:

predestination isn’t determined by the predestinated, but by the Predestinator. These things are the works of God. They are unilateral and unconditional. It is His right to apply these to whomever He will as His is the power to do as He pleases. How presumptuous for men to think it could be any other way. We have proved by the word of God predestination is only applied to those which God has foreknown and elected unto salvation. It cannot be affirmed by the word of God that predestination (not to mention foreknowledge and election) is based on foreseen works or faith. That idea is foreign to the word of God. Rather, predestination, the Greek, proori prooridzO, means, to determine beforehand. So God determined beforehand the destiny of those He foreknew and elected. In other words predestination sets the course of certain ones so that they shall surely receive the gift of everlasting life and positively come to faith in God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Listen, apart from the work of God no man can come to Christ because of sin. (Jn.6.29, 44) Man is dead in trespasses and sins. How few there are which grasp that man is really this dead. Well-meaning men pump just enough life into the man so that he can do something, anything. For this reason they have created one of the greatest contradictions in the word of God and one of the sharpest divisions there is among those of the true faith of Jesus Christ. They have made faith the moving cause for God’s foreknowledge, election and predestination. There is no better way to display the awesome greatness of God than by His public display from eternity past to eternity future that He can do what He pleases, when He pleases, and how pleases to whom He pleases. If you are one that knows Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again from the dead there can be no greater comfort for you at this present time than to believe every word of God. Receive it all just as it is written and be blessed.
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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Predestination is grounded in God alone and its #1 Unto Adoption

# 2 Why, because it pleased Him

#3 Its to the Praise of His Glory

Eph 1:5-6

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God can boast/glory about this for all eternity
 
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marke

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Predestination is grounded in God alone and its #1 Unto Adoption

# 2 Why, because it pleased Him

#3 Its to the Praise of His Glory

Eph 1:5-6

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God can boast/glory about this for all etc.
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If God did predestinate sinners to burn in hell forever for secret reasons or for no reason men can understand it would not bring Him any glory at all.
 
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DancesWithGnostics

Member
I guess God is outside Time, so when he "looked down the tunnel of Time" - it was "before the foundation of the world."

Arminians believe in Prevenient Grace - that enables us to believe while we were yet sinners.

Calvinists believe God regenerated someone completely and that he was just zapped from a corpse into believing. Apart from everything the person thought or did.

I know I will be accused of "misrepresenting Calvinism" in every word I speak of it.

And all the Calvinists MISREPRESENT ARMINIANISM and most of them can't even SPELL IT.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
DancesWithGnostics said:
Predestination is by foreknowledge.
God looks down THE TUNNEL OF TIME and sees who believed AND PERSISTED IN BELIEVING.
He doesn't force a choice of anyone.
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So you hold the view that predestination is determined by the predestinated. That the Eternal is determined by the temporal !
 
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marke

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
So you hold the view that predestination is determined by the predestinated. That the Eternal is determined by the temporal !
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Who decides which sinners go to hell and which sinners don't, and why? We all agree that salvation and condemnation are decided by the Lord, but we do not all agree that God decides who lives and dies for reasons he does not share with sinners and that have nothing to do with the sinner's acceptance or rejection of His word preached by the Holy Spirit.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
John Gill writing on Eph 1:5 predestination says:

Having predestinated us,.... Predestination, taken in a large sense, includes both election and reprobation, and even reaches to all affairs and occurrences in the world; to the persons, lives, and circumstances of men; to all mercies, temporal or spiritual; and to all afflictions, whether in love or in wrath: and indeed providence, or the dispensations of providence, are no other than the execution of divine predestination; but here it is the same with election, and is concerned with the same persons, and has regard to a special blessing, the elect are appointed to, as follows;
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself; by which is meant, either the grace of adoption, which is an act of the Father's love, a blessing provided and secured in the covenant of grace; and is of persons to an inheritance, to which they have no legal right; and is entirely free, there being no need on the adopter's part, and no worth on the part of the adopted: or rather the inheritance they are adopted to; which exceeds all others, is incorruptible, undefiled, and fades not away; and lies among the saints in light, and belongs to all the children of God: and this they are predestinated unto by God the Father, who takes them into his family, puts them among the children, and gives them a goodly heritage: and that "by Jesus Christ"; or through him; for both the grace of adoption, and the kingdom and glory they are adopted to, come by and through him as Mediator; through his espousing their persons, assuming their nature, and redeeming them from under the law and its curses; through his giving them a power and privilege openly to be the sons of God; and through faith in him, whereby they are manifestly such: the phrase "unto himself", either refers to God the Father, who has chosen, set apart, formed and reserved his people and children for himself, for his peculiar treasure, and for his own glory; or to Jesus Christ, that he might have some brethren, and they be conformed to him, and he be the firstborn among them, and in all things have the pre-eminence; and that they might be with him, and behold his glory, and he be glorified in them: and this act of divine predestination was

according to the good pleasure of his will: the will of God is the rule of all his actions, and of all his acts of grace and goodness; and the good pleasure of it appears in the predestination of men to grace and glory: and from hence it is manifest, that foreseen faith, holiness, and good works, are excluded from being the moving cases of predestinating grace; and that it is wholly to be resolved into the good will and pleasure of God; the view in it being entirely as follows,
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marke

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
John Gill writing on Eph 1:5 predestination says:
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This ascription of glory to both shows the greatness of the blessing, and the grateful sense which all interested in it ought to bear upon their minds continually, "for ever and ever"; or "to the ages of ages", a Jewish phrase, the same with לעלמי עלמין c. To which the apostle adds his "Amen", as joining with all the saints, above or below, in ascribing salvation, and the glory of it, to him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever. John Gill.

John Gill's opinionated interpretation of Galatians leaves some very important questions unanswered. For example, The Apostle Paul writes this:

Romans 9
9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Gill says Christians like the Apostle Paul will be glorifying God forever that God saved him and condemned his brethren, which does not ring true.
 
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marke

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Thats how most people feel about Gods Gospel.
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The Calvinist doctrine of God's hatred for sinners and desire to burn them in hell forever as though for some strange pleasure is a false gospel.

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 
Idolater

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
DancesWithGnostics said:
Calvinists sure love it that "God hated Esau"
Of course they overlook the context
Israel vs Esau, and not individuals
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Well, it was 'kind of' individuals, wasn't it? It was like a few thousand people, of the remnant, in chapter 11. That's only a small quantity of individuals, so does it stand to reason that individuals are predestined for saving faith?
 
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DancesWithGnostics

Member
There is a CLASS OF PEOPLE - BELIEVERS - they are predestined for salvation according to FOREKNOWLEDGE - God foresaw they would BELIEVE AND PERSIST IN BELIEVING.

PREDESTINATION is both CORPORATE and INDIVIDUAL.

The individuals are foreseen to BELIEVE and PERSIST IN BELIEVING til death.

God could tell that from the foundation of the world - He did not CAUSE it by forcing a person to believe - people are not automatons or puppets as the Calvinistic system would make them.
 
Idolater

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
DancesWithGnostics said:
There is a CLASS OF PEOPLE - BELIEVERS - they are predestined for salvation according to FOREKNOWLEDGE - God foresaw they would BELIEVE AND PERSIST IN BELIEVING.
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Why mention predestine if all that's meant is foreknow? "Predestine" means to set something in advance, why would you talk about presetting if the thing being set is going to be setting itself? It seems superfluous and basically meaningless if it's foreknowledge, to mention predestination, but they're both mentioned, so maybe your understanding is incomplete.
DancesWithGnostics said:
PREDESTINATION is both CORPORATE and INDIVIDUAL.

The individuals are foreseen to BELIEVE and PERSIST IN BELIEVING til death.

God could tell that from the foundation of the world - He did not CAUSE it by forcing a person to believe - people are not automatons or puppets as the Calvinistic system would make them.
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Then why say "predestine" at all?
 
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