What is holding us back?

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clefty

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It's a crime to read other people's mail.
indeed so stick to the four gospels...LOL...the rest are letters...not written to you...


That is unless the Holy Spirit is doing the dictating, and all who are spiritual are doing the reading.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.​

Whatever Paul writes is addressed to the household of God.

Eph. 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Yup there it is...NO DISTINCTION between jew and goy...that wall between them removed...Paul invites the goy to enter into the SAME KINGDOM...the SAME WAY...through Him...by faith...and obedient...just like in the OT...His House a House of prayer for ALL nations...every knee bows...worshipping Sabbath to Sabbath...

Isaiah invites you too...

Neat eh?
 

clefty

New member
No, the topic of the thread is why you aren't performing signs and wonders.

Oatmeal asked wondering if it was due to unbelief...which is revealed in works more like Him and less like the world...actions like His..lifestyle like His...in the mighty works of the Holy Spirit that is given to those who obey...taught Peter Acts 5:32

I mean even Satan believes...does signs and wonders...but does NOT have the Holy Spirit...for reasons just stated...

And obviously his works are not like His...except maybe like when he made staffs turn to snakes too...copy cat counterfeiter...
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
to Timothy to be specific...you are not Timothy...or recipient of any of the his letters...despite following Roman tradition

Proving you reject the Power of the Holy Spirit.

If you think for one minute that Paul wrote his letters to a select few people who were alive during his day, then you might as well throw that big Book right out in the yard.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Another one that lacks right division.

Even Paul's sign gifts faded away as time went on. In the dispensation of the grace of God we live by faith and not by sight.
That's presumptuous. Scripture doesn't back that up. It's merely conjecture.
 

Right Divider

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That's presumptuous. Scripture doesn't back that up. It's merely conjecture.
It just goes to show how little scripture you anti-dispensational folks know.

From Paul's last epistle:

2Ti 4:20 KJV Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Now leaving his fiend sick.... why not heal him instead?

Whereas, earlier in his ministry:

Act 19:11-12 KJV And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: (12) So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Amen.

For:

1 Corinthians 12:7 . . . the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

And the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46) will not cease operating until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at His Second Coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 which will just precede Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the Church going to reject the ministry of God's Two Witnesses because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because Jesus Christ's Second Coming, like the preceding Tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Holy Spirit's gifts are still operating in the Church today, in Pentecostal congregations, and in charismatic congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Holy Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8) while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). And when Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17, Nehemiah 2:4b). Indeed, the apostle Paul prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

--

Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Again, Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

Notice all the Acts and Corinthians...which were during the changeover? James and the Gospels which were for the Jews?

The two quotes from Thessalonians have nothing to do with the sign gifts.

And Ephesians does not include any sign gifts. Things that differ....are different for a reason. Not to be ignored but learn from. RIGHTLY DIVIDING.....you explain that how?

Eph. 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​

Notice the "vain babblings"?

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.​
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
It just goes to show how little scripture you anti-dispensational folks know.
I apparently know more than you, having experienced the Gifts and Ministries that The Holy Ghost brings, for more than a few years.
From Paul's last epistle:

2Ti 4:20 KJV Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Now leaving his fiend sick.... why not heal him instead?
I don't know. Neither do you. Why speculate, and especially: why speculate that God has taken back gifts that He said were for EVERY man?
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
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Right...that’s why you wont answer what standard we are to live by...His or the world’s or man’s traditions...

You do realize that it was false witness that claimed Yahushua changed the customs delivered by Moses yes?

You must be a moron! I answered that many times since time began,
 

JudgeRightly

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I apparently know more than you, having experienced the Gifts and Ministries that The Holy Ghost brings, for more than a few years.

For example?

I don't know. Neither do you. Why speculate, and especially: why speculate that God has taken back gifts that He said were for EVERY man?

Let's try a different angle.

What was the purpose of God allowing Paul and a few of his converts to perform miracles?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
For example?

Word of wisdom;
Word of knowledge;
Faith;
Gifts of healings;
Miracles;
Prophecy;
Distinguishing between spirits, and
Tongues.
What was the purpose of God allowing Paul and a few of his converts to perform miracles?
I couldn't presume to guess. The gifts are for every man, though.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


I don't believe God put a time-limit on them.
 

JudgeRightly

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...
...
...
Gifts of healings;
Miracles;
...
...
Tongues.

Could you provide two or three examples of each of the three items above that you personally have experienced in your life?

I couldn't presume to guess. The gifts are for every man, though.

So you have no idea why God allowed some to do miracles, and on top of that, you claim we cannot know?

You asked:


Why speculate, and especially: why speculate that God has taken back gifts that He said were for EVERY man?



Why not try to figure it out? If we find out it cannot be known, then that's one thing, but to refuse to even ponder the matter?

As scripture says:

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. - Proverbs 25:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs25:2&version=NKJV

A lot can be deduced from a passage of scripture, simply by studying it carefully.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I don't believe God put a time-limit on them.

Do you know how many miracles are in the Bible?

Are you aware that miracles in the Bible only occur within short periods of time, followed by long periods of time where no miracles occur?

There are only 343 miracles events in the bible.

Spread across a period of about 5000 years, that's not very many, and there were centuries where no miracles happened.

In fact, "no miracles" is the norm in the Bible.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Word of wisdom;
Word of knowledge;
Faith;
Gifts of healings;
Miracles;
Prophecy;
Distinguishing between spirits, and
Tongues.
I couldn't presume to guess. The gifts are for every man, though.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


I don't believe God put a time-limit on them.

If you were able to see what "that which is perfect" is referring to, you'd then see where your error is. When Paul wrote to the immature church in Corinth, he had not yet written his prison epistles.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.​

Paul was sent to "fulfill the word of God".

Colossians 1:25-26
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

This is why you don't see tongues mentioned in any of his other letters. It's also why you see no miraculous healings or other signs and wonders.

What you're experiencing is a placebo effect. You think you should, so you do. It's really quite common among all the Charismatics.
 

Aimiel

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So you have no idea why God allowed some to do miracles, and on top of that, you claim we cannot know?
He's never explained His Reasoning and I don't dare guess.
You asked:


Why speculate, and especially: why speculate that God has taken back gifts that He said were for EVERY man?



Why not try to figure it out? If we find out it cannot be known, then that's one thing, but to refuse to even ponder the matter?
I didn't say I haven't thought about it or researched it, just that I wouldn't care to speculate or claim to know God's thought processes.
There are only 343 miracles events in the bible.
Wow, that's a lot!!!
Spread across a period of about 5000 years, that's not very many, and there were centuries where no miracles happened.
That's your opinion.
In fact, "no miracles" is the norm in the Bible.
again: opinion.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I apparently know more than you, having experienced the Gifts and Ministries that The Holy Ghost brings, for more than a few years.I don't know. Neither do you. Why speculate, and especially: why speculate that God has taken back gifts that He said were for EVERY man?

Paul must be speaking of the ungodly, too, then.
Or, just those in the congregation.
Or for a time and a season.


"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."

You'll need to figure out when they are said to cease, which you have failed to do at this point.

You don't have any evidence of men being raised from the dead or the blind being healed or foretelling the future......

Do you? Nope, just your unsupported claim.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I apparently know more than you, having experienced the Gifts and Ministries that The Holy Ghost brings, for more than a few years.
It's so easy to make claims on an Internet forum. I could claim to be 10 feet tall.

I don't know. Neither do you. Why speculate, and especially: why speculate that God has taken back gifts that He said were for EVERY man?
False claim.

Again, it's so easy to make claims on an Internet forum.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Paul must be speaking of the ungodly, too, then.
Or, just those in the congregation.
Or for a time and a season.


"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."

You'll need to figure out when they are said to cease, which you have failed to do at this point.

You don't have any evidence of men being raised from the dead or the blind being healed or foretelling the future......

Do you? Nope, just your unsupported claim.
They're said to cease when that which is perfect is come. This world is still in a fallen condition, whether you have noticed or not. You are the one clinging to an in-supported claim. If you spent as much time seeking God as you do clinging to false 'loopholes' you'd do well.
 
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