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  • #76
    Apple 7:
    "2937 is in the genitive, which means that the Nominative 4416 possesses it.

    Thus, 4416, being assigned to Jesus, means that He is the Creator and controls 2937.

    You can't possibly be this stupid on your own....who is helping you?"
    There are a whole boatload of different types of genitive usage. Here is just one of them:

    Partitive Genitive

    It indicates the whole of which the head noun ('firstborn' in this case) is a part. It requires the head noun to have a nuance indicating 'portion.' (e.g. 'some, one, a part, tenth, etc.) 'Firstborn' has such a 'nuance.'

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Dartman View Post
      As expected, you want to shy away from what the Scriptures consistently say, and burrow as deep into the weeds as you can, to escape the clear, simple and direct statements the Scriptures ACTUALLY make.

      I would LOVE to see any Scriptures you might quote, to support this notion that ONLY Greek Scholars have access to the truth.

      You got anything for that?

      Yeah, I thought not.

      I know enough Greek to know you are being dishonest ABOUT the Greek, and that your interpretation of the Greek is about as common as MY interpretation of the Greek.

      προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου


      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
        Apple 7:

        There are a whole boatload of different types of genitive usage. Here is just one of them:

        Partitive Genitive

        It indicates the whole of which the head noun ('firstborn' in this case) is a part. It requires the head noun to have a nuance indicating 'portion.' (e.g. 'some, one, a part, tenth, etc.) 'Firstborn' has such a 'nuance.'

        'Prototokos' means ‘first’. Not created – but merely ‘first’.


        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
          προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου
          So, no.

          You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.

          And, you are living proof that whatever abilities you have in Greek, you believe a lie.

          1 Cor 1:20-21 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
          21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
            'Prototokos' means ‘first’. Not created – but merely ‘first’.
            Not quite.
            Prototokos means first born .... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Dartman View Post
              So, no.

              You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.

              And, you are living proof that whatever abilities you have in Greek, you believe a lie.

              1 Cor 1:20-21 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
              21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


              You can't even read what I posted!

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                Not quite.
                Prototokos means first born .... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".
                No.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                  You can't even read what I posted!
                  Titus 2:13

                  It isn't related. And, you misunderstand it.

                  It's your smoke screen.

                  You don't have anything that supports your theories.

                  You don't have anything that indicates knowing Greek is essential for Salvation.

                  Prov 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                    No.
                    ...... sorry ..... you are incorrect.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      You started with this zinger...

                      Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                      You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.

                      Now you keep moving the goal posts, and produced this new, and improved, zinger...


                      Originally posted by Dartman View Post

                      You don't have anything that indicates knowing Greek is essential for Salvation.


                      So...


                      Since you can't read Greek, and can only google a reply, how would you even know...?




                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                        ...... sorry ..... you are incorrect.

                        Show us.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Dartman:
                          Prototokos means first born .... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".
                          Apple7:
                          No.
                          Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
                          firstborn [prototokos]
                          From protos and the alternate of tikto; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively) -- firstbegotten(-born).
                          see GREEK protos
                          see GREEK tikto

                          Thayer's Greek Lexicon
                          STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις

                          κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc. ....
                          1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου, Romans 1:20.


                          Also here is another partitive genitive: “The firstborn of the dead.” - Rev. 1:5.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                            You started with this zinger...

                            You DON'T have any Scripture that states "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth.


                            Now you keep moving the goal posts, and produced this new, and improved, zinger...


                            You don't have anything that indicates knowing Greek is essential for Salvation.


                            ...... do you REALLY think there's no relationship between my two sentences????

                            You REALLY don't see the similarity between "only Greek "Scholars" can have access to the truth".
                            And, "knowing Greek is essential for Salvation". ??? No wonder you struggle with correctly interpreting the Greek, you don't do English well!

                            Let's look at it this way ..... IF there is such a difference, then I just doubled your chances of finding a Scripture to support your theory!

                            So, what 'cha got?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                              Show us.
                              Prototokos means first born ....

                              Just like Tigger2 said....

                              ... it is ktíseoos that means "Created".

                              NT:2937 ktisis (ktis'-is); from NT:2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively): KJV - building, creation, creature, ordinance.


                              Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                              Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
                              Rom 8:19-22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                              2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
                              Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature .
                              Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
                              Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
                              2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
                              Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                                Dartman:

                                Apple7:

                                Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
                                firstborn [prototokos]
                                From protos and the alternate of tikto; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively) -- firstbegotten(-born).
                                see GREEK protos
                                see GREEK tikto

                                Thayer's Greek Lexicon
                                STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις

                                κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc. ....
                                1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου, Romans 1:20.


                                Also here is another partitive genitive: “The firstborn of the dead.” - Rev. 1:5.

                                Being 'born' is NEVER equated as being 'created'.

                                Any lexicon on the planet will tell you this, and overturn your attempting to blend the two...

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