PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
And yet... He won’t concede. Unitarians never do. They’re blinded to the truth.
Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.
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And yet... He won’t concede. Unitarians never do. They’re blinded to the truth.
Greetings again Apple7,
Kind regards
Trevor
Nothing much to explain from my perspective. Ezekiel 1 is a vision of the four Cherubim and central to this was the vision of the Throne. You seem to delight in separating the component parts into separate entities.
Kind regards
Trevor
You left out that several are modalist/oneness, but that really isn't the point.
The point is your entire post is void of ANY Scripture that clearly, simply and directly states your theory.
Period.
Paul's crucial warnings decimate your theories;
Acts 20:26-31 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
The great falling away happened WITHIN THE BISHOPS/ELDERS of the Church!
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Paul's warning instructs us to beware of anyone teaching a "Jesus" that the apostles didn't preach.
AT NO TIME do the Scriptures record ANY teacher in Scripture, explaining a trintarian, or oneness "Jesus" to ANY audience.
2 Thess 2:1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
That’s Sabellian, which I referred to.
It wouldn’t matter. If I provide verses with terms and their lexicography from Greek, you’ll just dismiss them as not meeting “your” requirements.
Like I said, I really couldn’t care less if you’re heterodox or heretical, and I’m well aware of how futile it will ever be to discuss this topic with you. You’re an English speaking text-to-reader neophyte. I will freely admit that I can’t bridge that gap.
All bare assertion from false interpretation by presuppostion without ANY language understanding or translation knowledge. A completely Modernist-driven set of false conclusions based on your own inputs.
Please go learn the rudiments of Greek. Therein, the Trinity doctrine is clearly proven.
LOL .... of course!!!!
I forgot ALL those verses stating clearly that ONLY Greek speakers get salvation!!!
This is a transparent attempt to overcome the UTTER LACK of ANY Scripture that clearly, plainly and simply states your theories.
Riddle me this Bat Man, beginning with the KJV, the major translations have been done by trinitarian translators.
Are you trying to claim, that YOU know Greek BETTER than ALL of them, and that YOUR translation would actually CHANGE their trinitarian translations?
If so, please give us a couple of examples of texts YOU would translate differently.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
And yet you have no idea what I was referring to, thinking I’m referring to learning other languages.
What a doltish inference. Basic understanding of language in general keeps someone from making very ignorant and arrogant mistakes, especially for those steeped in the fallacious corruption of their own native low-context receptor language that has structural differences from the donor language/s.
And I clearly referred to knowing “the rudiments of Greek”, not learning the Greek language. You couldn’t tell the difference between a Greek anarthrous and articular noun. That can be explicated in English, as does every language resource to whatever extent. You couldn’t identify different Greek verb tenses, but they are readily identifiable to those who merely use resources to access the text, NOT LINGUISTS who know Greek as a language.
And now you’re conflating the threshhold of salvation with the minutiae of doctrine; and you’re insisting that YOUR false doctrine is somehow directly asserted in scripture. There is no biblical reference to “Unitarian” OR “Trinitarian” in the text. ALL views of Theology Proper are developed from the same kinds of linguistic platforms. You just presume yours is not because of your linguistic ignorance.
No scripture plainy and simply states the theory of Unitarianism. No scripture indicates that Jesus was merely humanity. In fact, there are many Greek terms that are assembled to insist otherwise, and all through scripture. You just don’t have any working knowledge of basic linguistics.
And yet... You adamantly insist something that is notably absent from scripture while demanding a kind of proof that is absurd for translated texts. The Greek terms for form (morphe) and form (schema) alone can account for the Divinity of Christ, but you have no idea what they mean or even where to find them in the text.
They weren’t Trinitarian translations. They were translations by those who would have recognized the lack of divinity of Christ by the presence or lack of Greek terms alone and in aggregate that express much more than you can know.
Why do you display your ignorance with these false assertions from a total lack of linguistic information?
I have and can provide a list of terms that have meanings in the text that absolutely affirms the Divinity of Christ. I posted two of them above. The problem is that you don’t have any idea what words means except in English from translation, and you don’t have ANY idea how translations are accomplished.
As I said, I promise you I couldn’t care less if you’re a Unitarian or a Mormon. You’re absolutely unqualified to even begin to approach the translated text in any manner relative to linguistics and doctrinal development. You’re not even yet a novice, much less being something more. You’re like a kindergartener arguing for basic things that any accomplished theologian can refute. But you will reject the means of refutation because you know nothing of it.
Why would you speak of things of which you have NO idea how to examine and support? You don’t even know what a Greek anarthrous noun is. You have NO idea what goes into translation or you wouldn’t have made your childish assertions.
You relating yourself to the Riddler is very apt. He was criminally insane. Theologically, you’re the same, and it’s beyond sad. You can’t even find the “grid” necessary for anyone to correct you. You play on your own terms that are NOT the terms of linguistics and all else necessary to have these conversations.
You are dismissed.
Hmmm.... you said;
Please go learn the rudiments of Greek. .....
Are you know backing away from this??
Or, is Greek your NATIVE language?
If not, isn't "learning the rudiments of" ... ANY Language "leaning other languages"?
Your verbose personal attacks are just Squid Ink.... intended to distract from your glaring lack of Scripture that "clearly, simply and directly states your theories".
PPS said:
John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.
This simple statement eliminates ANY other being/person as a "true God". AND, clearly states that Jesus was SENT BY the ONLY true God.
You have exactly ZERO Scriptures that clearly, simply state your doctrine like this states mine.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
You have exactly ZERO Scriptures that clearly, simply state your doctrine like this states mine.
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
You have exactly ZERO Scriptures that clearly, simply state your doctrine like this states mine.
So, in the place of clear, simple and direct statements actually MADE in Scripture, you want to ignore the forest, and focus on man's opinions about the cells, in the leaves, of the trees.PPS said:
Sorry, that won't work.
I have access to MANY works of scholars probably better than either of us, and can refute your opinions, with other opinions. But that isn't going to work either.
The Scriptures insist that KNOWING Scriptures ... (NOT knowing Hebrew, or Greek).... is the key to being "wise unto salvation".
2 Tim 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
LOL .... it's going to take MUCH more than egotistical bluster, and personal attacks to "dismiss" anyone.PPS said:
Apple7
New member
Incorrect.
Eze 1:
The Word of God(Eze 1.3) = The Glory of God(Eze 1.28) = Man(Eze 1.26 – 28)
Greetings again Apple7,
Kind regards
Trevor
Each of these words have their own range of meaning and are not equivalents. I understand that the Word of God is not speaking about the 2nd Person of the Trinity here in Ezekiel 1, but it is the Word of God, and it includes the interaction of Ezekiel with what God speaks initially, but also refers to what Ezekiel eventually speaks, the Word of God. This is equivalent to Ezekiel being commissioned as a prophet to speak the words of God. Thus when the Word of God came to John in the wilderness it was not the 3rd Person of the Trinity as you suggest but again signalling the commencement of his ministry. The vision of the Cherubim and Throne in Ezekiel 1 is a vision, not a reality. The very fact that each Cherubim has four different faces and has calves feet is some indication of this.
Kind regards
Trevor
He did not say anything about salvation. You changed the end, in this case to justify the means, to make yourself appear to have some valid meaning as an appendage to you tangential argument. You do not, you mainly error, since I read you. He is right, you do not know the Greek language and that make the topic limited when debating you. So, you lose the debate.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
No. Learning the rudiments of Greek is not even remotely close to learning the Greek language. It’s a comparative discipline to identify language forms and structures, and to access valid lexicography. Just like looking up grammatical forms and definitions in English. I wouldn’t even recommend most people attempt to learn Greek, and certainly not Hebrew. There are plenty of resources to become adept at recognizing comparative language structures for meaning in translation.
No, and that’s irrelevant for me just as it is for anyone else.
Not even close. Learning to recognize grammatical forms and comparing differences and omissions between languages to understand translation processes doesn’t even register on the scale of learning a language.
The fact that you don’t know that and make these statements is very telling.
There’s no such thing. You think words means what you presume and infer them to mean rather than what they actually mean. And you have no idea what the Trinity doctrine is in minutiae by THIS standard rather than the standard you fallaciously set for yourself by your own false judgment.
This merely indicates a plurality of some kind for Father and Son. No reference to whether or not the Son is divinity or not. And if you knew the subtleties of grammar and lexical meaning, you’d see this is an introduction to the divinity of the Lord.
LOL. This statement eliminates nothing. And you’ve also isolated it from all other verses that must be correlated. You have inferred much, and all according to your ignorance of grammar and words in translation.
“Yours” is right. “Your” doctrine, which is not God’s. This does not say what you presume it says at all, but you can’t know that because you don’t know what words mean from their source.
Philippians 2:6-7, when understood according to its Greek foundation/s, absolutely states Trinitarian divinity for Christ and singly refutes Unitarianism.
“Who, being in the form (morphe) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form (schema) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”
If you had ANY understanding of the two words rendered “form” in English, you would know that the Divinity of Christ is irrefutable from this passage alone, and relates to many other verses in aggregate to present the Trinity doctrine. You just don’t have ANY idea what morphe OR schema are, or why what I just said is true; and you wouldn’t listen if I spent hours explicating it. You’d just say “Nuh-uh. Nanny-nanny-boo-boo.”
And the Trinity doctrine affirms that Christ was indeed fully man. This verse doesn’t say he wasn’t divine. It merely focuses upon His humanity because the miracle was the eternal and uncreated Logos being enfleshed as authentic humanity. THAT’s the proper hermeneutic for this verse.
Yours is an weak pseudo-argument from silence, to which you’ve added presuppostions.
Philippians above did exactly that, but you have no idea that it did. And that’s not the only text that has the truth of Christ’s divinity and the Trinity in a manner that Englishizers can’t see because it’s hidden in plain sight if one has very basic grammatical skills.
Again, this is your false and shallow interpretation based upon ignorant inference and horrible hermeneutics. This passage, like most you attempt to use, was never intended as a proof-text for Theology Proper. It was an endorsement of the Son AS CREATOR. “By whom all things” means the Son was the means of creation.
And of course the Father is the only God (articular). The son is God (anarthrous). But you have no idea what those mean. They mean the Son is the same qualitative divinity as the Father, but is not the Father. The Father is the one true and living God. The Son is His Logos just as the Holy Spirit is His Spirit.
The Son and the Holy Spirit proceeded from the one true God, who is the Father. Being His Logos and Spirit, they are qualitatively the same divinity, but not quantitatively the Father Himself.
But English doesn’t have this grammatical form for nouns, so you have no idea what to do with it in translation.
Your alleged “simple” statements are all incorrect, though. You’re just too linguistically ignorant to know that and it’s ridiculous. Who died and left you in charge of doctrinal determination and translational assessment?
And then you use the crutch of Restorationism to just disannul church history for your bogus historical revisionism. What you’re doing is the theological equivalent of a Federal Class X felony. You have no idea what you’ve said and done.
You’re too theologically and scripturally ignorant to even begin to make these kinds of statements. You’re at an early grade school level attempting to criticize PhD source material. It’s about as absurd as it gets.
This is insane, Riddler. All I’ve referred to is the simple lexicography of words and the grammatical forms of language in translation. I’m not referring to any scholars. And you’re not in the category of scholar at all. Not even in the same solar system.
Hint: The scriptures came from Hebrew and Greek words and grammar. You misrepresent it all in the worst kind of ignorance. And you don’t even know the meaning of the word “knowing” OR the other words for “knowing” that it isn’t.
I could have a field day with you here. But it would be futile just like all other exposures of your complete blindness to scripture.
Yeah, no doubt. Except none of what I’ve posted is egotistical in the least, but ALL you’ve posted IS. And it’s not a personal attack to validly dismiss a complete and utter neophyte who is an heretic. It’s a scriptural mandate for me and others regarding those like you.
Of course it is. Your description following, trying to avoid the obvious mess you've made, is not remotely close to learning the rudiments of Greek. It would be learning the rudiments of Bible study.
I agree with this premise, but that is NOT "learning the rudiments of Greek"!PPS said:
Now, given that we agree on this premise, how would you measure the difference between your training and mine?
You are making a totally blind assumption about my training, and what I have learned over the decades I have been studying the Bible.
Please give examples .... rather than shooting blindly.PPS said:
LOL ..... sorry, in my many years of discussing Scripture with trinitarians, most proponents of the trinity VERY QUICKLY try to hide in the "minutiae"!!PPS said:
Because they have ZERO Scriptures that actually STATE their theories!!
The theories associated with defining the trinity are EXCLUSIVELY Greek philosophical terms, and CONTRADICT the OT and NT statements about Jehovah/YHVH, and His holy servant Jesus.
Please provide a definition of "ONLY".PPS said:
In over 250 posts, NO ONE has attempted to offer a trinitarian/oneness understanding of these texts;
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.
Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.
Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.
This small sample of the verses on this topic CLEARLY, SIMPLY AND DIRECTLY STATE .... Jehovah/YHVH God, is the ONLY creator of the Universe, and Jesus is His "servant".
The meaning of each word in these texts is blatantly obvious by the immediate context, and the greater context of all Scripture.
Men can attempt to twist the meaning, by digging for "minutiae", and missing the Forest.
But it is clear, simply and directly stated, Jehovah alone created the Universe.
The NT also clearly, simply and directly states that Jesus created the "COSMOS" ... civilization ... in which we live. And, that Jesus has been given authority over, and responsibility for EVERY throne, dominion, principality and power ... in heaven, and on earth....... but that his God created him.
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.
Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.
Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.
This small sample of the verses on this topic CLEARLY, SIMPLY AND DIRECTLY STATE .... Jehovah/YHVH God, is the ONLY creator of the Universe, and Jesus is His "servant".
The meaning of each word in these texts is blatantly obvious by the immediate context, and the greater context of all Scripture.
Men can attempt to twist the meaning, by digging for "minutiae", and missing the Forest.
But it is clear, simply and directly stated, Jehovah alone created the Universe.
The NT also clearly, simply and directly states that Jesus created the "COSMOS" ... civilization ... in which we live. And, that Jesus has been given authority over, and responsibility for EVERY throne, dominion, principality and power ... in heaven, and on earth....... but that his God created him.
beloved57
Well-known member
Then Christ must be Jehovah Jn 1:1-3
[FONT="] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 The same was in the beginning with God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.[/FONT]
Sorry, Jesus isn't discussed until verse 7, God's words (LOGOS) are.
And, we KNOW Jesus cannot be Jehovah, since Jehovah promised Israel that HE would put HIS words in Jesus' mouth ..... and Jesus confirms;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (logos) : and the word (logos) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
1) The verses previously given show conclusively, Jehovah/YHVH God ALONE created the Universe.
2) Jesus is Jehovah's servant, Jehovah's chosen..... NOT Jehovah himself!
3) John CLEARLY uses "LOGOS" in it's natural, common meaning. "Something said or written". This should help your understanding of John 1.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Any biblical linguist can tell you have NO understanding of linguistics.
Only in John 17:3 is monos, an adjective. And this refers to the ousia (essence), and is not applicable to the hypostasis (substance). The Trinity doctrine affirms this. It’s the “oneness” aspect of God versus the “threeness” aspect of God.
All you have referred to here is the singular ousia that is Divinity. There is no other divinity than the singular ousia. That’s Trinitarianism, not your false caricatures of it in misunderstanding and misrepresentation.
If you were a linguist, this wouldn’t even be a question; especially if you knew what the Trinity doctrine is.
You have admitted that Trinitarian theology is mainstream Christianity. You are an outlier. A heretic. And so are all your Socinian/Christadelphian/Unitarian peers. There is space for you to repent. Just lay aside your pride and ignorance. God is gracious and merciful.
Nope. LOGOS. SINGULAR.
Even all the following pronouns that refer to the LOGOS (singular) are singular.
Words (plural) are not being discussed.
HO LOGOS (the word) is being discussed.
Jesus is described as being the Creator of the universe in Colossians:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV
So your first assertion can't be right.
The following passages are speaking of the LORD, Jehovah, yes?:
Hear my prayer, O Lord, And let my cry come to You.Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble; Incline Your ear to me; In the day that I call, answer me speedily. - Psalm 102:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:1-2&version=NKJV
and
But You, O Lord, shall endure forever, And the remembrance of Your name to all generations. - Psalm 102:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:12&version=NKJV
and
So the nations shall fear the name of the Lord, And all the kings of the earth Your glory.For the Lord shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory.He shall regard the prayer of the destitute, And shall not despise their prayer.This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the Lord.For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary; From heaven the Lord viewed the earth,To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To release those appointed to death,To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem,When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord. - Psalm 102:15-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:15-22&version=NKJV
and
Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed.But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.” - Psalm 102:25-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:25-28&version=NKJV
All about Jehovah, yes?
This is what the author of Hebrews says, speaking of the Son, Jesus:
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
- Hebrews 1:8-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:8-12&version=NKJVVerses 10-12, you'll note, are a quote from Psalm 102, a prayer to Jehovah by name that could not be talking to or about any other being. The author of Hebrews even addresses the son as the "Lord." Such a title, especially when quoting a psalm such as 102, is referring to "YHWH" or "Jehovah." The Book of Hebrews thus plainly identifies Jesus as Jehovah.
So that's your second assertion blown out of the water.
And?
You've never heard of metaphors?
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shrug/ this is just more bluster on your part, based on the fact that I have the nerve to disagree with you.
Absolutely true.PPS said:
100% conjecture, and contrary to the context. Jesus is CLEARLY comparing two essential doctrines;PPS said:
1) The Father is "the ONLY true God".
2) Jesus was "sent by" the ONLY true God.
Again, your attempt to dig down to the "minutiae" is obscuring your view of the FOREST~~~!!!
That's a VERY reassuring position, in the light of Scripture;PPS said:
Matt 7:13-15 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
And, the majority have followed a false "Christ".
Acts 20:28-31 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
This apostasy was led by the "ELDERS" in the church ... not all of them, but like Justin Martyr, who was a disciple of Greek philosophy, they began to pollute the Church with "another Jesus", a "false Christ".
Rev 17:1-6 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:17-18 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
In Biblical prophecy women represent a spiritual group that SHOULD be believers. Israel, and the "bride of Christ" are classic examples.
The "great whore" is a spiritual group, that SHOULD be believers .... which committed fornication (spiritual adultry) with the kings of the earth.
Verse 18 is graphically clear we are talking about Rome.
It is true that pagan Rome reigned over the kings of the earth, and was guilty of the blood of martyrs ...... but they were not a "spiritual group that SHOULD be believers".
So, let's turn to history/church history.
What "spiritual group" is centered in Rome, and which reigned over the kings of the earth ..... like making a king wait barefooted, in the snow, for 3 days, in order to beg for forgiveness .... or, that exercised their power to APPOINT kings, and demanded the right to crown kings, etc.?
What "spiritual group" that is centered in Rome has slaughtered ANY that opposed them for more than 1,000 years, with burning at the stake, inquisitions, and crusades ..... taking MILLIONS of lives?
Yep, you guessed it!
There is space for you to repent. Just lay aside your pride and ignorance. God is gracious and merciful.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
The MINIMUM take-away is the Divinity of Christ, but the Trinity is clearly present as a biblical doctrine in all of these references.
beloved57
Well-known member
All I can do is show you the truth, cant cause you to believe it
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