John 20:28 and the Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Where is Mary mentioned in Psalm 22, and where does Jesus call her His mother?

Psalm 22:9-10 (KJV): 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
Matthew 2:13-14 (KJV): 13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Still playing your game. Is Mary the mother of Jesus? Did Jesus have a mother? Was God the Father the father of Jesus and Mary his mother Luke 1:34-35, Matthew 1:20-21?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

John 19:25-27 KJV(25) Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
(26) When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
(27) Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

The gospels don't count? Or do you have to see the word in red ink? Do you not accept Jesus as the ultimate author of the scriptures?

Further.....your very own example declares that Mary is John's mother (your mother)!

Jesus NEVER says that Mary is 'my mother'.

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Psalm 22:9-10 (KJV): 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
Matthew 2:13-14 (KJV): 13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Still playing your game. Is Mary the mother of Jesus? Did Jesus have a mother? Was God the Father the father of Jesus and Mary his mother Luke 1:34-35, Matthew 1:20-21?

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 22.6 declares that He is NO man.

Thus, how can He refer to Mary as His mother, in the first person?

Fact is, He NEVER does...and rightly so...

 

[Jacob]

The right thing to do is to believe it.

Jesus is referred to a god in several places in scripture but so is Moses and as Pierac points out so are other earthly rulers or judges in scripture.

It is high time that people look at the entirety of scripture for answers, that is, for truly satisfying answers, answers that satisfy the conditions of II Tim 2:15 and II Peter 1:20

Interesting. I have to differ with you. Jesus is not referred to as a god in Scripture.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Psalm 22.6 declares that He is NO man. Thus, how can He refer to Mary as His mother, in the first person? Fact is, He NEVER does...and rightly so...

Are you suggesting that Jesus was not a man. This is figurative language as he is claiming to be a worm. He is certainly not claiming to be God the Son here:
Psalm 22:6 (KJV): But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalm 22:9-10 states that he came forth from his mother, Psalm 22:14 speaks of his bones and heart, Psalm 22:15 “my tongue” and Psalm 22:16 “my hands and my feet” and he appeals to God his Father to save him from death. I suggest that you need a rest, Robert. I will answer for you: Yes, Mary is the mother of Jesus. We do not have a record of how Jesus addressed his mother in the 30 years up to his ministry, and also we do not have a record of exactly how Jesus addressed Joseph while he was alive.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Are you suggesting that Jesus was not a man.

Scripture informs the reader that Jesus is both God and man....not merely man.

This is figurative language as he is claiming to be a worm. He is certainly not claiming to be God the Son here:
Psalm 22:6 (KJV): But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

The word used here is 'tō·w·la·‘aṯ' and literally means 'scarlet'.

Remember that this entire chapter revolves around Jesus' crucifixion.

So...please engage your thoughts before replying disingenuously.

Further, Jesus was declared to be God The Son long before The Cross.

Study up.

Psalm 22:9-10 states that he came forth from his mother, Psalm 22:14 speaks of his bones and heart, Psalm 22:15 “my tongue” and Psalm 22:16 “my hands and my feet” and he appeals to God his Father to save him from death.

Where is The term 'Father' used in Psalm 22?

I suggest that you need a rest, Robert. I will answer for you: Yes, Mary is the mother of Jesus. We do not have a record of how Jesus addressed his mother in the 30 years up to his ministry, and also we do not have a record of exactly how Jesus addressed Joseph while he was alive.

Kind regards
Trevor

You refer to Psalm 22....but then you conveniently forget to discuss Jesus' deity contained within it.

Why?

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter, An interesting variation. One of the passages that I sometimes discuss with Trinitarians is Psalm 110:1 and I am curious with your claim that "Jesus is our LORD and God" how you explain this verse, as I consider here that LORD (Yahweh) is God the Father and He invites Jesus the son of David, who is also the Son of God and David’s Lord, to sit at His right hand. This verse is extensively quoted and expounded in the NT, and my assessment of this is that this does not support the Trinitarian or your perspective.
I doubt that anyone apart Apple7 could explain, and I am not sure if even he has a valid concept why he is asking this. I think it is a debating tactic, hoping we will give up, like a bluff and raising the stakes in a game of poker, because as far as I can assess the question does not make any sense.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalms 110:1 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

It is a future prophecy to be applied to the Messiah, who as shown here receives the throne of God.

Hindsight enables us to see see that the LORD himself became our Messiah, it is still described with metaphor. It's like the classic twist when the beggar that the nobles and the court has looked down on and thrown out of the castle is then discovered to also be the king. Concealment is an intended part of the plot; gradual revelation and finally full disclosure makes sense of it in the end.

Proverbs 25:2 KJV
(2) It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

This is why it is so important to recognize that if you are talking with those that accept Jesus as LORD, it is not sufficient to show that Jesus did not always claim full status and privilege as God, or that some passages make it seem that Jesus is not the LORD while there are other explanations. The greater and greater revelation of his identity and given the mounting evidence and indications, the total absence of denial of deity and the full claim of identity as the same LORD that created all things is intended to clear up prior confusion.

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Apple7, Psalm 22:9-10 (KJV): 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
Matthew 2:13-14 (KJV): 13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Still playing your game. Is Mary the mother of Jesus? Did Jesus have a mother? Was God the Father the father of Jesus and Mary his mother Luke 1:34-35, Matthew 1:20-21?

Kind regards
Trevor

I don't think that Apple7 believes that Jesus wrote the scripture. Which is strange enough, but the truly ironic part is that you (as a Unitarian) are claiming that Jesus wrote that scripture. But in this case I agree with you.

 

[Rosenritter]

Interesting. I have to differ with you. Jesus is not referred to as a god in Scripture.

Sean Finnegan (outspoken Unitarian) acknowledges that Jesus is referred to God at least twice in scripture, including John 20:28 and 1 Timothy 3:16. He tries to explain these away, but he does admit that Jesus is called "God."

 

[Rosenritter]

Scripture informs the reader that Jesus is both God and man....not merely man.

The word used here is 'tō·w·la·‘aṯ' and literally means 'scarlet'.

Remember that this entire chapter revolves around Jesus' crucifixion.

So...please engage your thoughts before replying disingenuously.

Further, Jesus was declared to be God The Son long before The Cross.

Study up.

Where is The term 'Father' used in Psalm 22?

You refer to Psalm 22....but then you conveniently forget to discuss Jesus' deity contained within it.

Why?

Please show me how Jesus's divinity is revealed within Psalm 22. I don't see it there. One generally has to keep reading to Psalm 24, and that's a show stopper if you can get someone to answer on the spot.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Scripture informs the reader that Jesus is both God and man....not merely man.

Although I do not agree because I believe that Jesus is a man, the Son of God, you have misapplied Psalm 22:6:

Psalm 22.6 declares that He is NO man. Thus, how can He refer to Mary as His mother, in the first person? Fact is, He NEVER does...and rightly so...

I believe that Jesus is expressing his humility here, not “His Deity”. Compare Abraham in Genesis 18:27 who stated that he was “but dust and ashes”. Perhaps if you want to use your language skills you may like to discuss the three (or more?) Hebrew words translated “man”, and in my amateur level they are adam, ish and enosh, and Psalm 22:6 uses ish. Why does he not use enosh here?

The word used here is 'tō·w·la·‘aṯ' and literally means 'scarlet'. Remember that this entire chapter revolves around Jesus' crucifixion. So...please engage your thoughts before replying disingenuously.

I suggest that Psalm 22:6 is figurative language, refer above.

Further, Jesus was declared to be God The Son long before The Cross. Study up. Where is The term 'Father' used in Psalm 22? You refer to Psalm 22....but then you conveniently forget to discuss Jesus' deity contained within it. Why?

But you have not yet answered “Is Mary the mother of Jesus?”

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Apple7, Although I do not agree because I believe that Jesus is a man, the Son of God, you have misapplied Psalm 22:6:I believe that Jesus is expressing his humility here, not “His Deity”. Compare Abraham in Genesis 18:27 who stated that he was “but dust and ashes”. Perhaps if you want to use your language skills you may like to discuss the three (or more?) Hebrew words translated “man”, and in my amateur level they are adam, ish and enosh, and Psalm 22:6 uses ish. Why does he not use enosh here?
I suggest that Psalm 22:6 is figurative language, refer above.
But you have not yet answered “Is Mary the mother of Jesus?”

Kind regards
Trevor

If Psalm 22:6 is not figurative language, then Jesus was not a literal man but a literal worm. That would create a far greater problem.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

Psalms 110:1 KJV A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
It is a future prophecy to be applied to the Messiah, who as shown here receives the throne of God.
Hindsight enables us to see see that the LORD himself became our Messiah, it is still described with metaphor. It's like the classic twist when the beggar that the nobles and the court has looked down on and thrown out of the castle is then discovered to also be the king. Concealment is an intended part of the plot; gradual revelation and finally full disclosure makes sense of it in the end.

I believe that Psalm 110:1 distinguishes between Yahweh, God the Father and Jesus the Son of God. There are many NT passages that demonstrate this and clarify Psalm 110:1. Psalm 8:1 is another passage that shows the distinction between Yahweh, God the Father and Jesus the Son of God when this is considered properly.

I don't think that Apple7 believes that Jesus wrote the scripture. Which is strange enough, but the truly ironic part is that you (as a Unitarian) are claiming that Jesus wrote that scripture. But in this case I agree with you.

I do not agree as I believe that God the Father inspired David to write his own thoughts and experiences in the Psalms, and yet many of the Psalms reveal the future thoughts and circumstances of the future Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ. There are many examples of this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jacob]

Sean Finnegan (outspoken Unitarian) acknowledges that Jesus is referred to God at least twice in scripture, including John 20:28 and 1 Timothy 3:16. He tries to explain these away, but he does admit that Jesus is called "God."

A God, the God, God. These are different. Jesus as God while Jesus had a God could potentially be two Gods rather than one. Jesus did say "the Father is greater than I.". I don't know that this is a Trinitarian statement.

1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Is this God or the Son of God or both? Is it Jesus? That is what I believe. The Son of God.

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter,I believe that Psalm 110:1 distinguishes between Yahweh, God the Father and Jesus the Son of God. There are many NT passages that demonstrate this and clarify Psalm 110:1. Psalm 8:1 is another passage that shows the distinction between Yahweh, God the Father and Jesus the Son of God when this is considered properly.
I do not agree as I believe that God the Father inspired David to write his own thoughts and experiences in the Psalms, and yet many of the Psalms reveal the future thoughts and circumstances of the future Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ. There are many examples of this.

Kind regards
Trevor

If you aren't acknowledging that Jesus wrote that scripture than you aren't actually answering Apple's question. He was asking where JESUS called Mary his mother, not where God or the prophets or the gospels or the apostles or the holy scripture called Mary the mother of Jesus. For some reason he seems to think that Jesus will disagree with all of those, so he wants an exact quote in red ink.

 

[Rosenritter]

A God, the God, God. These are different. Jesus as God while Jesus had a God could potentially be two Gods rather than one. Jesus did say "the Father is greater than I.". I don't know that this is a Trinitarian statement.

When you say that a person has no God you are either saying that they are godless or abandoned by God. On the opposite side of that meaning, a prophet speaks the words of God. By definition, a prophet cannot be godless, every prophet has a god. God has both roles here, both of the prophet (he speaks for himself) and of He that is spoken for. So when he is his own prophet, of course God is his God.

I don't personally care if "the Father is greater than I" is Trinitarian or not. John 14:28 "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" is in the context of glory, and Jesus did not come to the earth as the Lamb to obtain glory, but rather to be our sacrifice. When he ascends to heaven to the Father it says he is restored to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

John 17:5 KJV
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Please don't ask me to defend Trinity statements (ask a Trinitarian.)

1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Is this God or the Son of God or both? Is it Jesus? That is what I believe. The Son of God.

You need a more reliable translation. It says "God was manifest in the flesh." There are a couple manuscripts that omit the word "God" and of those few manuscripts they have a couple different variations, deficient both in their grammar (indicating that the copy is unreliable) and common sense. "Great is the mystery of Godliness" is clearly speaking of God, and as the reliable (and majority) manuscripts demonstrate, the text also says "God."

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

https://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm

That site there (above) has some explanation as to the source text of "God was manifest in the flesh." (not "He")

 

[Jacob]

When you say that a person has no God you are either saying that they are godless or abandoned by God. On the opposite side of that meaning, a prophet speaks the words of God. By definition, a prophet cannot be godless, every prophet has a god. God has both roles here, both of the prophet (he speaks for himself) and of He that is spoken for. So when he is his own prophet, of course God is his God.

I don't personally care if "the Father is greater than I" is Trinitarian or not. John 14:28 "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" is in the context of glory, and Jesus did not come to the earth as the Lamb to obtain glory, but rather to be our sacrifice. When he ascends to heaven to the Father it says he is restored to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

John 17:5 KJV
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Please don't ask me to defend Trinity statements (ask a Trinitarian.)



You need a more reliable translation. It says "God was manifest in the flesh." There are a couple manuscripts that omit the word "God" and of those few manuscripts they have a couple different variations, deficient both in their grammar (indicating that the copy is unreliable) and common sense. "Great is the mystery of Godliness" is clearly speaking of God, and as the reliable (and majority) manuscripts demonstrate, the text also says "God."

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

https://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm

That site there (above) has some explanation as to the source text of "God was manifest in the flesh." (not "He")

It sounds like it should be He rather than God. Have you read Colossians 2:9 NASB?

I am not sure about what you say of Jesus being God being His own prophet.

 

[Rosenritter]

It sounds like it should be He rather than God. Have you read Colossians 2:9 NASB?

I am not sure about what you say of Jesus being God being His own prophet.

Did you understand that this is not about whether a translator "decides" what word belongs where, but a matter that "God was manifest in the flesh" is the actual reading of the majority texts and that the minority reading is not only rare but also using incorrect grammar, indicating a change from the original? It's not a matter of picking which we like best.

 

[Dartman]

Did you understand that this is not about whether a translator "decides" what word belongs where, but a matter that "God was manifest in the flesh" is the actual reading of the majority texts and that the minority reading is not only rare but also using incorrect grammar, indicating a change from the original? It's not a matter of picking which we like best.

You have this backwards.

 

[Dartman]

... So when he is his own prophet, of course God is his God.

Says no verse ever. Your theory contradicts VAST quantities of Scripture.

When he ascends to heaven to the Father it says he is restored to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

This is a gross distortion of Scripture. You use SOME Scriptural terms..... but not the way the Scriptures state.


John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus doesn't use the word "restore" at all. Jesus doesn't indicate that he, Jesus, was THERE ... he states God had glory in Christ before the world was. Sort of like newlyweds can plan for the glory their children will bring ..... except, God KNOWS the future .... we don't.