Jews And Gentiles Same Goal

[Jerry Shugart]

So you're saying the times of refreshing means nothing?

You asked me why I changed the word "remission" to "forgiveness" and I told you that the translation I quoted used the word "forgiveness" and not "remission." What I said had nothing at all to do with the times of refreshing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, don't stop at the first word when you quote me. You miss the entire point I was making. And I'm surprised since you seem quite adept when you speak about the mystery Paul preached.

All you did was to try to change the subject, which is the fact that in the verse I quoted Paul said that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith.

Do you deny that the Jews who lived under the law were saved in that way?

 

[Rosenritter]

Give your definition of repent. opcorn:

It has a basic meaning of a change, often with a connotation of regret. Specific meaning may vary depending on biblical context. Usually when we speak of "repent" and "repentance" it is with regard to repentance from sin meaning that it is a sincere and contrite recognition of the heart of the problem, and a willingness to change from sin or sinfulness.

The "I repented once and I'm never doing that again" meme is a demonstration of an insincere unrepentant spirit. Godly repentance is an ongoing change in our spirit; a Christian does not "repent once and get it over with" as we are not yet perfect. Note how Jesus speaks to these churches (of Christ) admonishing them to repent.

Revelation 2:4-5 KJV
(4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
(5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Spoiler

Revelation 2:16 KJV
(16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 3:3 KJV
(3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:19 KJV
(19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

To borrow words from John, if we say we have no sin (thus no need to repent) we are a liar, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:8-10 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2 Corinthians 7:10 KJV
(10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

[Rosenritter]

It might seem to be a synonym, but the remission of sins was used by Peter when he was addressing "all the house of Israel". Acts 2:36 Acts 2:38

When cancer goes into remission it is not eradicated. Peter speaks of the "times of refreshing" that their sins would be blotted out. So, seems like there is a difference to me.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.​

Paul, on the other hand, preaches forgiveness of sin when we believe. There is no waiting.

Colossians 1:14 Colossians 2:13 Ephesians 4:32

Strong's concordance lists it as a synonym. Both Forgiveness and Remission are translated from the same word. I don't see justification for dividing it into a "not quite remitted" vs "totally forgiven" difference like that.

G859 ἄφεσις aphesis af'-es-is From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Acts 10:42-44 KJV
(42) And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
(43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Considering the audience of this forum, I'll insert the reminder that Peter is speaking to Cornelius, the Gentile.

 

[Right Divider]

It has a basic meaning of a change, often with a connotation of regret. Specific meaning may vary depending on biblical context.

Indeed!

The context of Acts 2:38 is clear and is speaking of a SPECIFIC thing that they needed to repent of. Verse 36 defined the context for this repentance.

Act 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

Verse 37 shows that they understood "NOW when THEY had HEARD THIS".

The REPENT in verse 38 refers to what THEY has DONE as defined in verse 36.

It ain't rocket surgery.

 

[Rosenritter]

Indeed!

The context of Acts 2:38 is clear and is speaking of a SPECIFIC thing that they needed to repent of. Verse 36 defined the context for this repentance.

Act 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

Verse 37 shows that they understood "NOW when THEY had HEARD THIS".

The REPENT in verse 38 refers to what THEY has DONE as defined in verse 36.

It ain't rocket surgery.

I'm not sure what you think you've proved there Mr. Surgeon (wasn't he a famous Calvinist?)

 

[Right Divider]

I'm not sure what you think you've proved there Mr. Surgeon (wasn't he a famous Calvinist?)

It figures that you cannot understand something so simple.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).​

In Barnes' Notes on the Bible we read that "There are two words in the New Testament translated 'repentance,' one of which denotes a change of mind, or a reformation of life; and the other, sorrow or regret that sin has been committed. The word used here is the former, calling the Jews to a change of life, or a reformation of conduct" (Notes on the Bible, Albert Barnes, Commentary at Matthew 3:2).

In Vincent's Word Study we read "Repentance, then, has been rightly defined as 'Such a virtuous alteration of the mind and purpose as begets a like virtuous change in the life and practice'" (Vincent's Word Studies, by Marvin R. Vincent).

At Matthew 3:3 we read of John the Baptist "preparing the way of the Lord" in regard to the kingdom which was at hand. In what way was he preparing the way?

It was necessary for the people to have a change of mind in regard to their sinful life style in order "make ready a people prepared for the Lord " so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74-75).

 

[Rosenritter]

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).​

In Barnes' Notes on the Bible we read that "There are two words in the New Testament translated 'repentance,' one of which denotes a change of mind, or a reformation of life; and the other, sorrow or regret that sin has been committed. The word used here is the former, calling the Jews to a change of life, or a reformation of conduct" (Notes on the Bible, Albert Barnes, Commentary at Matthew 3:2).

In Vincent's Word Study we read "Repentance, then, has been rightly defined as 'Such a virtuous alteration of the mind and purpose as begets a like virtuous change in the life and practice'" (Vincent's Word Studies, by Marvin R. Vincent).

At Matthew 3:3 we read of John the Baptist "preparing the way of the Lord" in regard to the kingdom which was at hand. In what way was he preparing the way?

It was necessary for the people to have a change of mind in regard to their sinful life style in order "make ready a people prepared for the Lord " so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74-75).

Isn't repentance said to be one of the foundations of Christ, going hand in hand with faith? I don't understand how anyone could view repentance as optional or only for a certain race of people...

Hebrews 6:1-3 KJV
(1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(3) And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Isn't repentance said to be one of the foundations of Christ, going hand in hand with faith?

There are two kinds of repentance and one of them simply means a change of mind. Before anyone could be baptized with water he had to believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water. Then he submitted to the "baptism of repentance." That baptism was in regard to changing one's way of living for the better.

 

[Squeaky]

There are two kinds of repentance and one of them simply means a change of mind. Before anyone could be baptized with water he had to believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water. Then he submitted to the "baptism of repentance." That baptism was in regard to changing one's way of living for the better.

I said
I think you really missed the context.The only one who was ever born of God is Jesus. Anyone who is born of God CANNOT sin. People will always have sin in their lives to deal with.

[1Jo 3:8-10
[8] He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[10] In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor [is] he who does not love his brother.

[1Jo 1:8-10
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[glorydaz]

It has a basic meaning of a change, often with a connotation of regret. Specific meaning may vary depending on biblical context. Usually when we speak of "repent" and "repentance" it is with regard to repentance from sin meaning that it is a sincere and contrite recognition of the heart of the problem, and a willingness to change from sin or sinfulness.

That's known as trying to cover all your bases without actually touching even one.

But, the section in yellow is clearly how you understand the word....seemingly no matter the context.

The "I repented once and I'm never doing that again" meme is a demonstration of an insincere unrepentant spirit.

Only according to your choice of definitions.

I believe repentance is a change of mind. I went from unbelief to belief, and I will never be able to disbelieve. In fact, repentance UNTO SALVATION is not to be repented of. You shouldn't conflate godly sorrow with repentance. The one leads to the other.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.​

Godly repentance is an ongoing change in our spirit; a Christian does not "repent once and get it over with" as we are not yet perfect. Note how Jesus speaks to these churches (of Christ) admonishing them to repent.

Spoiler

Revelation 2:4-5 KJV
(4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
(5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Spoiler

Revelation 2:16 KJV
(16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 3:3 KJV
(3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:19 KJV
(19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

To borrow words from John, if we say we have no sin (thus no need to repent) we are a liar, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:8-10 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

None of the verses you cite say repentance is from sin.

Back to the subject at hand. The Jews needed believe (to change their mind) in Jesus being the Son of God...the Messiah. Which is why John preached the baptism of repentance to the Jews.

Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.​

Paul preached belief in the work of Jesus Christ (dbr). A change of mind from unbelief to belief. Not from sin, but toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[Rosenritter]

That's known as trying to cover all your bases without actually touching even one.

But, the section in yellow is clearly how you understand the word....seemingly no matter the context.

I am sure you would have preferred that I provide an incomplete definition, so that you could target it as being incorrect or lacking in some way.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I said
I think you really missed the context.The only one who was ever born of God is Jesus. Anyone who is born of God CANNOT sin. People will always have sin in their lives to deal with.

No, the Jews who believed in the name of the Lord Jesus were born of God:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

 

[glorydaz]

Strong's concordance lists it as a synonym. Both Forgiveness and Remission are translated from the same word. I don't see justification for dividing it into a "not quite remitted" vs "totally forgiven" difference like that.

G859 ἄφεσις aphesis af'-es-is From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Acts 10:42-44 KJV
(42) And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
(43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Considering the audience of this forum, I'll insert the reminder that Peter is speaking to Cornelius, the Gentile.

First I didn't say, "Not quite remitted". It's a matter of when the "remission" of sins for the Jews would be accomplished. Did it happen when OUR LORD came the first time? No, they crucified Him and rejected Him as their Messiah. When does scripture say it will happen? And what does it say will happen.

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

It's really hard to explain something to someone who will not even consider what was preached to the Jews is not the same as what Paul preached to the Gentiles.

Cornelius was a Gentile that blessed Israel. The only Gentiles that could partake of the promises were those who blessed Israel as Cornelius did. (Until Paul, of course). That has always been true of those Gentiles. Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Acts 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.​

 

[Rosenritter]

I said
I think you really missed the context.The only one who was ever born of God is Jesus. Anyone who is born of God CANNOT sin. People will always have sin in their lives to deal with.

Spoiler

[1Jo 3:8-10
[8] He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[10] In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor [is] he who does not love his brother.

[1Jo 1:8-10
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

From the same book of 1 John,

1 John 5:4-5 KJV
(4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1. born of God = overcometh the world
2. overcometh the world = he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.

Therefore, he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God is born of God. Contextually those two statements were meant to lead together. Although "whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" may seem troublesome, it doesn't look like it was meant to only refer to Christ. "Children of God" as compared to "children of the devil" are both in the plural sense.

 

[glorydaz]

I am sure you would have preferred that I provide an incomplete definition, so that you could target it as being incorrect or lacking in some way.

Actually, I would prefer that you weren't so bull headed and actually took the time to consider what I post.

You aren't the first poster that insists repentance is being sorry for sins. Nor are you the first poster to mix up scripture and think it's saying the same thing. If you ever even considered that repentance could be a change of mind about something besides sin, you'd be half way there.

 

[glorydaz]

From the same book of 1 John,

1 John 5:4-5 KJV
(4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1. born of God = overcometh the world
2. overcometh the world = he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.

Therefore, he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God is born of God. Contextually those two statements were meant to lead together. Although "whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" may seem troublesome, it doesn't look like it was meant to only refer to Christ. "Children of God" as compared to "children of the devil" are both in the plural sense.

Yep, there are lots of things that don't compute when you can't rightly divide.

I'm sure you're getting sick of hearing that, but it can't be improved upon when you try to blend law and grace.

 

[glorydaz]

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water. Then he submitted to the "baptism of repentance." That baptism was in regard to changing one's way of living for the better.

Is that really what you think the baptism of repentance was for?

Acts 19:3-4 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.​

John 1:31
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

 

[Squeaky]

No, the Jews who believed in the name of the Lord Jesus were born of God:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

I said
Sorry but there is only one born of God. And cannot sin. We can be children of God but we are adopted.

Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[10] In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor [is] he who does not love his brother.

[1Jo 1:8-10
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.