Jews And Gentiles Same Goal

[glorydaz]

Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Add that to the previously cited passages demonstrating that sinners need repent, and that sins must be repented of. I have no idea why anyone would argue that mankind has no need to repent of their sins.... but then again, I never anticipated that anyone would argue that "Love God" and "Love thy neighbor" were "works of the flesh" either.

Sinners need to turn to God...believing. Being sorry for sins won't buy you salvation.

What? Don't you believe the Lord Jesus Christ when He walked this earth?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

The commandment to Love God and love your neighbor cannot be accomplished through the flesh. Which is the entire point. When you make these big pronouncements, make sure you get them right. So far, you are striking OUT.

 

[Rosenritter]

Sinners need to turn to God...believing. Being sorry for sins won't buy you salvation.

What? Don't you believe the Lord Jesus Christ when He walked this earth?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

The commandment to Love God and love your neighbor cannot be accomplished through the flesh. Which is the entire point. When you make these big pronouncements, make sure you get them right. So far, you are striking OUT.

You're the only person arguing "merely being sorry for sins" and you're making that argument in my stead. "Straw man" arguments aren't legit.

 

[glorydaz]

1 John 1:8-9 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Is John speaking to people who have not yet believed? Yet they still need forgiveness of sins. .

Who is John speaking to? Gal. 2:9

 

[glorydaz]

You're the only person arguing "merely being sorry for sins" and you're making that argument in my stead. "Straw man" arguments aren't legit.

That's right, you play mix and max and still can't see that repentance is a change of mind.

You can read repentance UNTO God and still call it repentance FROM SIN.

 

[Squeaky]

We know that before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

I said
Not so. The only One who was ever born of God was Jesus. When we get born again we are adopted. Whoever is born of God. Does Not Sin. And we will never be without sin. We will always have a thorn.

[1Jo 3:9
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[1Jo 5:4, 18
[4] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ...
[18] We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

[1Jo 1:8-10
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[Squeaky]

That's right, you play mix and max and still can't see that repentance is a change of mind.

You can read repentance UNTO God and still call it repentance FROM SIN.

I said
I dont mean to but in but that statement threw me a little Why would anyone repent to God for no reason. How would anyone repent to God if there wasnt a sin involved?

 

[glorydaz]

Not to be a nitpicker, but the Bible never describes anyone as "going under the water" in regards to any water baptism.

I know that many have the belief that baptism is dunking. But this idea cannot be supported from the Bible.

I don't mind in the least when I'm corrected by you, RD, or others who know what they're talking about. I think about how the Jews saw nothing amiss with what John did, so I've always considered it like the various Jewish washings. Lev. 8:5-9 for instance. Heb. 6:2 certainly speaks of different baptisms (washings). We do know the ONE BAPTISM does not involve water.

 

[glorydaz]

I said
I dont mean to but in but that statement threw me a little Why would anyone repent to God for no reason. How would anyone repent to God if there wasnt a sin involved?

Repentance is a turning to God....from unbelief. Of course there is sin while in unbelief, but it's that change of mind from unbelieving to believing that leads to forgiveness.

In the same way, it's turning from the unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah to belief in His being the Messiah that the Jews were to do.

 

[glorydaz]

You're the only person arguing "merely being sorry for sins" and you're making that argument in my stead. "Straw man" arguments aren't legit.

I didn't use the word "merely". Try to keep it straight without the add-ons.

Lest I think you have an ulterior motive. lain:

 

[Rosenritter]

I didn't use the word "merely". Try to keep it straight without the add-ons.

Lest I think you have an ulterior motive. lain:

Then in the interests of keeping things straight, do you remember how with regards to forgiveness of sin I spoke of repentance of the heart and spirit that affects a real change in the individual? The specific scripture context was "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" (2 Co 7:10).

2 Corinthians 7:10 KJV
(10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

The "being sorry" that you criticized as insufficient would the other part mentioned, "the sorrow of the world worketh death" which would not work repentance to salvation. Considering that you said that this "being sorry for sins" was not sufficient, I don't think that "merely being sorry for sins" was a mischaracterization. "Merely" means "without anything else" which was what you were alleging... unless you do wish to add something else, for clarification?

Luke 15:7 KJV
(7) I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Sinners are called to repentance and they must repent from sin. Hopefully this is not something that anyone still wants to debate?

 

[Rosenritter]

Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

What? Don't you believe the Lord Jesus Christ when He walked this earth?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

Your said that it was my own personal bias that humanity had a universal need to repent from sin. Then you mocked "what world do you live in? and neg-rep'd the passage from Romans. Now you say that understanding the world under sin in need of repentance from sin in Jesus in disbelieving Jesus?

Acts 17:30-31 KJV
(30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

... and your argument is that (at least some) sinners do not need to repent of sin and sinning? And if not why argue?

Luke 13:2-3 KJV
(2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
(3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:46-47 KJV
(46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
(47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 12:21 KJV
(21) And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Why would you argue that some people do not need to repent from sin? If you argue against a universal need for repentance from sin, that's the only option left, that there must be some people who do not need to repent of their sin. But hey, if you say you have no sin and no need to repent....

1 John 1:8-10 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Squeaky]

Your said that it was my own personal bias that humanity had a universal need to repent from sin. Then you mocked "what world do you live in? and neg-rep'd the passage from Romans. Now you say that understanding the world under sin in need of repentance from sin in Jesus in disbelieving Jesus?

Acts 17:30-31 KJV
(30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

... and your argument is that (at least some) sinners do not need to repent of sin and sinning? And if not why argue?

Luke 13:2-3 KJV
(2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
(3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:46-47 KJV
(46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
(47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 12:21 KJV
(21) And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Why would you argue that some people do not need to repent from sin? If you argue against a universal need for repentance from sin, that's the only option left, that there must be some people who do not need to repent of their sin. But hey, if you say you have no sin and no need to repent....

1 John 1:8-10 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I said
Good revelation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sinners are called to repentance and they must repent from sin. Hopefully this is not something that anyone still wants to debate?

No one must repent from their sins in order to be saved because in order to be saved one must "believe," as witnessed by the answer of Paul and those with Him:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Before a person can believe in Christ they first have to "repent" or have "a change of mind" about Him. Faith and repentance are inseparable in regard to the gospel.

On the other hand, the Scriptures also speak of repenting or having a change of mind in regard to living a sinful lifestyle. That is the meaning of the word "repent" in the following verse:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).​

The repentance in regard to changing one's sinful lifestyle was to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74,75).

The children of Israel could not serve The Lord Jesus in righteousness and holiness as long as they remained living a life that defiled them. Therefore, they were to "repent" (have a change of mind) in regard to the sinful lifestyle they were living.

 

[Squeaky]

you said
No one must repent from their sins in order to be saved

I said
The way you worded that can be very deceiving. Depending on where you put the comma.

No one must repent, from their sins in order to be saved.

No, one must repent from their sins in order to be saved.

Leaving it wide open half will take it one way and half the other.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

you said
No one must repent from their sins in order to be saved

I said
The way you worded that can be very deceiving. Depending on where you put the comma.

No one must repent, from their sins in order to be saved.

No, one must repent from their sins in order to be saved.

Leaving it wide open half will take it one way and half the other.

If I wanted a coma anywhere in the first part of my sentence I would have used one.

 

[Squeaky]

If I wanted a coma anywhere in the first part of my sentence I would have used one.

I said
Dont get huffy, I'm just showing you how different people will read it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If I wanted a comma anywhere in the first part of my sentence I would have used one.

It looks like 'Squeaky' is messing with your mind a wee bit.

 

[Rosenritter]

No one must repent from their sins in order to be saved because in order to be saved one must "believe," as witnessed by the answer of Paul and those with Him:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Before a person can believe in Christ they first have to "repent" or have "a change of mind" about Him. Faith and repentance are inseparable in regard to the gospel.

On the other hand, the Scriptures also speak of repenting or having a change of mind in regard to living a sinful lifestyle. That is the meaning of the word "repent" in the following verse:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).​

The repentance in regard to changing one's sinful lifestyle was to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74,75).

The children of Israel could not serve The Lord Jesus in righteousness and holiness as long as they remained living a life that defiled them. Therefore, they were to "repent" (have a change of mind) in regard to the sinful lifestyle they were living.

Without disagreeing, but perhaps supplying additional perspective, I would say that it is impossible to believe on Jesus Christ without believing his gospel (they are inseparable in this context)* and that one does not believe in Christ and his gospel if one is not willing to do that which he says. Jesus addresses the disparity between professed belief and true belief in the parable of building upon sand or the Rock.

Luke 6:46 KJV
(46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 6:47-49 KJV
(47) Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
(48) He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
(49) But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

You speak of a a change of mind but I think that your meaning is better described as a change in our heart, which would imply a spiritual change rather than a mere intellectual decision or a manifest whim.

And likewise, you cannot have a change of heart to Christ and a change of mind against a lifestyle that defies Christ without also reputing sin both individually and as a whole. Also applying your words which were well spoken, "Faith and repentance are inseparable in regard to the gospel."

* By believing in Jesus Christ I do not mean believing that he existed, as Josephus acknowledged that James was the brother of one called Jesus whom was called the Messiah, or the sense that James speaks of when he chides "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble" but rather in the sense that James speaks of when he says "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

 

[glorydaz]

You're the only person arguing "merely being sorry for sins" and you're making that argument in my stead. "Straw man" arguments aren't legit.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that you put quotes around the words "merely" as if I had said them. If you're going to quote me, do it correctly, lest you continue to put words in my mouth I have not said. How can we believe anything you say if you add to or twist another's words? That seems simple enough, doesn't it?

Then in the interests of keeping things straight, do you remember how with regards to forgiveness of sin I spoke of repentance of the heart and spirit that affects a real change in the individual? The specific scripture context was "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" (2 Co 7:10).

2 Corinthians 7:10 KJV
(10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

The "being sorry" that you criticized as insufficient would the other part mentioned, "the sorrow of the world worketh death" which would not work repentance to salvation. Considering that you said that this "being sorry for sins" was not sufficient, I don't think that "merely being sorry for sins" was a mischaracterization. "Merely" means "without anything else" which was what you were alleging... unless you do wish to add something else, for clarification?

Do you remember how I pointed out that godly sorrow is not the same as repentance and I used that very verse to prove it? Probably not, you were to busy trying to spiritualize everything and so ended up missing the point I was trying to make.

Luke 15:7 KJV
(7) I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Sinners are called to repentance and they must repent from sin. Hopefully this is not something that anyone still wants to debate?

It's your understanding of the word repentance that requires debate. You just proved again that you equate repentance with sin.

 

[glorydaz]

Acts 3:19 KJV
(19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

My my, who would ever suspect that one should repent for their sins?

My my, do you ever try to read what is written without inserting your own personal bias into the verse? lain:

Did you ever consider it's the "convert" part that causes their sins to be blotted out?

Did you ever consider that "repent" is referring to their change of mind concerning their Messiah (whom they had crucified)? Being sorry for your sins will not cause them to be blotted out.

Instead of reading what I wrote, you got hung up on the phrase "personal bias". I know, it hurts your feelings, but you made my point for me. Your preconceived definition of repent colors every verse you read.

Your said that it was my own personal bias that humanity had a universal need to repent from sin. Then you mocked "what world do you live in? and neg-rep'd the passage from Romans. Now you say that understanding the world under sin in need of repentance from sin in Jesus in disbelieving Jesus?

You missed it again John 3:16 and went off on another tangent.

Acts 17:30-31 KJV
(30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Commandeth all men every where to repent (turn from unbelief to belief) in he who was ordained and raised from the dead.

... and your argument is that (at least some) sinners do not need to repent of sin and sinning? And if not why argue?

What? You want me to agree with you in your error?

Spoiler

Luke 13:2-3 KJV
(2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
(3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:46-47 KJV
(46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
(47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 12:21 KJV
(21) And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Why would you argue that some people do not need to repent from sin? If you argue against a universal need for repentance from sin, that's the only option left, that there must be some people who do not need to repent of their sin. But hey, if you say you have no sin and no need to repent....

1 John 1:8-10 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Actually, there is another option left but you aren't ready to hear it.