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Is Calvinism Wrong?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, we would gladly obey, you say.
Paul says concerning the law.
Romans 7:18-19 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
I'm just wondering how you think such a thing can be accomplished by obeying the Law. I'm not sure what verse you're talking about where we "become love", but please don't it distract you from the subject at hand.
The Law of Commandments. We're talking about Matt. 5, right?
So, I'll ask again. Can love be commanded. How does that work?
Ah, so it can't be accomplished through man's efforts. Which is the point. Man can want to be perfect. He can try hard to obey. He can try hard to love. So, the Law can never make men righteous, it can never justify anyone, and it can never give life. Yet Jesus preached it, didn't He? He preached it so man would see his own guilt and his inability to keep the law perfectly. His inability to love his enemies perfectly.
So, my question to you is why you keep speaking of the schoolmaster to those who are already IN CHRIST.
Rosenritter
New member
That is totally not what the passage says nor what it implies. Let's break this into small parts:
Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Where does it say that this dividing is because of a preexisting inheritance or a preexisting curse? It doesn't. In very fact, he hasn't divided anything yet, rather it says that "he shall separate" and "he shall set." That division and separation is not an event of eternity past as you would require, rather it is an event of the judgment future.
Matthew 25:34-36 KJV
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
That word "for" means "For reason of" meaning that the reason for the blessing and the inheritance is about to follow. "For" does not mean "this is a subsequent effect of..."
Does it say that the sheep were individually selected from the foundation of the world? No, it says that the kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world. None of these individuals existed from the foundation of the world. As for any argument of preexistence, our scriptures say that God formed us in the womb, not that he formed us from before the womb (see Isaiah 44:2, 44:24, 49:5, and Jeremiah 1:5).
So what explanation are we and the sheep given for this blessing?
Matthew 25:37-40 KJV
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
It sounds like you would require this to be read as if the King was being rather deceptive to his sheep. Whereas the King says that the sheep are blessed and receive an inheritance because of their actions unto the least of his brethren and unto him, with your version of the story the King lies to his subjects and tells the sheep one thing while secretly maintaining some secret mystery of Calvinism as to the reason for his division.
This setting is the judgment of the dead. If Calvinism were true and the reason for the sheep being set aside was because they were secretly selected (and not because of their actions) wouldn't this be the time to finally reveal that once and for all? Why hold any secrets now?
You are in denial of the Gospel and justification by faith.
"Therefore being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1.
Rosenritter
New member
Do you have a scripture passage in mind when you say "the purpose of the law is to condemn law breakers?" Because I'm seeing scripture give an entirely different purpose of the law.
Hebrews 10:1 KJV
(1) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 8:10 KJV
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Actually, that's what I've been trying to tell you.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rosenritter
New member
Would you not gladly obey the commandment to Love God and Love thy Neighbor, even to Love one Another? No more dancing, just yes or no, please. It's a simple question.
Romans 7:1 "for I speak to them that know the law" is the Law of Moses, as we read in the Old Testament.
Romans 7:4 "ye are also become dead to the law by the body of Christ" is still speaking to that same Law of Moses.
Romans 7:5-6 ... continues with the same meaning of law... "but now we are delivered from the law"
But what does it say then? "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of letter."
Romans 7:14-15 KJV
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Paul is explaining that there is a spiritual aspect to the law, not merely by the letter. And he goes on to describe a different type of law that is served in spirit, not in the flesh. One law is unto death and another law unto life. Paul is not allergic to the topic of law.
Romans 7:14 KJV
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:22-25 KJV
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
How can perfect love be accomplished by obeying the law? Paul has an answer for that in Romans. It's a perfect answer as it directly addresses your question.
Romans 13:8-10 KJV
(8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
(9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
"Love is the fulfillment of the law" and this is the reason why Jesus said "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Luke 10:28) The seeming contradiction appears in Luke as the certain lawyer did not have an honest intent to love God and love his neighbor, as shown by his attempt to justify himself by limiting the definition of neighbor. The fulfillment of the law is in Spirit, not in flesh.
The Law of Commandments (the Law of Moses) was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Galatians 3:24-25 KJV
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
And in the biblical context, the fulfillment of that law is love (Romans 13:10) and Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17).
Yes, Love can be commanded. If you think it cannot you need to ask Jesus why he commanded Love. See Mark 12:30-31, John 13:34, John 15:12, Romans 13:9, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 4:21, and 2 John 1:5-6.
John 15:12-14 KJV
(12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
(14) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Hopefully we are no longer arguing about whether love can be commanded. If John and Paul are not sufficient, Jesus should be an ultimate authority on this question. Your question is now left at "how does this work' and hopefully not "IF" it is commanded or "IF" it works?
And to this I have already answered. It is a spiritual commandment, and it must be answered in faith, in spirit and truth. If Jesus commanded you to walk on water, would you walk on water? How does it work? Jesus and this father of the child answered this question as well:
Mark 9:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
But it cannot be accomplished without man's effort either, unless you wish to entertain the Calvinist idea that "love" and "faith" and "belief" are gifts which are forced upon unwilling man. It is accomplished by surrender to Christ through the Holy Spirit.
First, man doesn't want to be perfect, certainly not in the sense that Jesus said of "Be ye therefore perfect." Man has a desire towards imperfection, and loving his enemies is something that goes against his very nature.
Second, Jesus did not preach "the Law" -- he didn't deny the law, he didn't tell people to disobey the law or break the commandments, but that was not the subject of his preaching. Jesus did preach the Law of Love (which James calls "The Royal Law" ) and He also spoke of faith and belief and repentance and forgiveness of sins. To the extent that you say that the law convicts us of sin, I suppose you could say that no preaching can be devoid of law (of some sort) but that wasn't his focus.
If you had fully learned from that schoolmaster, you would not be protesting against the commandments of Christ.
The Law of Moses is the schoolmaster, the fulfillment of the law is love and are the commandments of our Christ.
And Jesus the fulfillment of that Law says, If we are his friends, we shall do his commandments, that we should love our neighbor as ourselves, love one another as He loved us, and even that we should love our enemies. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:2-3 KJV
(2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
(3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Among Christians, why should the commandment to LOVE be so controversial as if it were something grievous?
Rosenritter
New member
Rosenritter
New member
The distinction I am getting at is whether the purpose of the law is to bring us to righteousness or to bring us to unrighteousness. Sin is the transgression of the law, but if the purpose was to "condemn law breakers" then why would God say he would put his laws in their mind and write them in their hearts when he restores Israel? (Hebrews 8:10?)
Romans 8:4 KJV
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The purpose of the schoolmaster is not to expel failing students but rather to bring them into understanding. Mennosota seemed to have a different take on this, thus my question.
... I told you that slip of wording was going to catch you
We are justified by faith alone, because we are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26.
Rosenritter
New member
Yes, I knew what you meant, but you got your terms mixed up in the heat of argument. Salvation is on an individual basis, we are judged as individuals.
Romans 14:10-12 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
(12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
I think you meant to say (and I would agree) that the prophesied redemption of the saints and destruction of the wicked is corporate, that these generalized groups are corporate and not yet defined by individuals. But since you were on the attack, you cannot hold it against others if they take you at your literal words instead of extending the grace to "know what you meant to say."
glorydaz
Well-known member
Neither, it's purpose is to show men their sin, and find them guilty. Romans 3:19
Israel isn't restored yet. Romans 11:25-26 The law is not written in anyone's mind and hearts yet. This is why people try show you that not all of scripture is FOR you. You keep quoting Hebrews which is written to the Jews and for the Jews. There are lots of good things in Hebrews we can learn from, but we can't apply it to us.
The law is not meant to "bring us to righteousness". Nor does the law give Life.
This verse makes it clear.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Instead, righteousness comes through faith.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Notice the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled IN US....not by us.
No, once faith comes, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. We graduate, and are justified by faith. If faith does not come, then we are kept under the law and found guilty...condemned by it.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that sinners Christ died for are lost so you are not consistent.
Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
glorydaz
Well-known member
So you're trying to tell me that coveting is the Law of Moses, and not one of the ten commandments?
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Exodus 20:1-17 1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
We'll have to get this straight before we can go on.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, it just gives you an excuse to jump all over the place, and claim we must obey the commandments. Christ was the obedient ONE, and what the law could not do, He did IN US. So, back we go to these verses.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Wrong, all man's efforts get in the way, and only give him room to boast. Your comments about Calvinists only show me that you continue to miss the mark. Love is the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruits of the flesh according to the law. We can't obey the commandment to love. Love is fulfilled IN US when we believe. The love of God is shed abroad on our hearts by the Spirit, who dwells in the believer. Romans 5:5 Man cannot claim any credit for that.
Your post is too long. Try to deal with this part before you go off in other directions. Please.
Rosenritter
New member
By special request, this is the Reader's Digest version.
I am confused as to how the commandment from Christ to love each other would be controversial as to whether it applied to Christians. I never imagined that anyone would imply that it was "legalism" or "attempting to earn salvation" or anything of that sort. I don't desire argument, I am willing to let this rest, I only hope that perhaps we will understand each other better in the future.
I am confused as to how the commandment from Christ to love each other would be controversial as to whether it applied to Christians. I never imagined that anyone would imply that it was "legalism" or "attempting to earn salvation" or anything of that sort. I don't desire argument, I am willing to let this rest, I only hope that perhaps we will understand each other better in the future.
Rosenritter
New member
1. The Ten Commandments are part of the Law of Moses, which contains more elements than simply the Ten Commandments. There are also laws about sabbaths, sacrifices, clean and unclean meats, ceremonial washings, fringes about the garments, and so forth... which all constitute the Law of Moses.
2. Although there is a specific commandment of the Law of Moses regarding covetousness, it would be sourced from a greater preexisting law that has always existed before which the Law of Moses was drawn. Sin is the transgression of the law, therefore law has existed before sin, which entered the world through Adam and the serpent. That law of love is summed in "Love God" and "love thy neighbor." Covetousness is part of "love thy neighbor" and is applicable to all regardless of the Law of Moses.
Do we agree that sin entered the world before the Law of Moses (which includes the Ten Commandments) existed?
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, the law of Moses is not the same as the Ten Commandments. It's odd, though, that you insisted I be specific which Law I was referring to, and now you say they are part of the same.
Deuteronomy 4:13-14
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
The Law of God is the Ten. Written by the finger of God, Himself. The ten is the eternal law of God which stands forever. The Law of Moses was temporary....only in effect for Israel until the "seed should come."
glorydaz
Well-known member
You shouldn't let it rest, you should attempt to use the common sense God gave you.
I don't recall saying anything about "legalism" or "attempting to earn salvation". You're the one who thinks man can obey a commandment to LOVE....before the love of God has even been shed abroad on his heart. A command can't accomplish that.
"What the law could not in that it was weak through the flesh...."
The law cannot make you love God or anyone else. The law was never intended to do any such thing.
The commandment is given so that we will see our guilt...our utter inability to obey the commandments (which Jesus taught included our very thoughts). That is when we fall on our knees and turn to Him for His Grace. The Law was given to lead us to Christ...not to demand we do what we were never created to do on our own.
Rosenritter
New member
Glory, would you please read what it is that you are replying to? Carefully, and word by word if need be? What was said is that the Law of Moses CONTAINS the Ten Commandments, and other elements besides. With mathematically certainty, that is not the same as.
Besides this, I don't know why you are arguing against a basic definition of the Law of Moses. This is a well established term.
Do you still want to argue that the Ten Commandments are not part of the Law of Moses?
If you are contending that the "Ten Commandments" are the "eternal law of God" you have the problem that there were no Ten Commandments prior to Moses, yet sin still existed in the world, therefore there was a law that existed before those commandments.
There may also be some other issues that you do not anticipate, including that one of those Ten Commandments deals specifically with the Sabbath, which occurs at days throughout the year both annually and weekly. The apostles declared that the Sabbaths were not binding, and if the Sabbaths which were established only by commandment through the Ten Commandments through Moses are not binding, then that speaks to the entire Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments.
As a reminder, this is one of those commandments:
Exodus 20:8 KJV
(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
And here is what the New Testament has to say about that commandment, which is one of those Ten.
Romans 14:5-6 KJV
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:16-17 KJV
(16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
If you believe that you are under the "Ten Commandments" you are likely breaking that law, even if out of ignorance. For example, do you know when the annual sabbaths occur? Do you conveniently forget the commandments you do not want to keep, or alternatively are you a "Seventh Day" Adventist (or similar) that also observes the annual sabbaths?
But for now, would you at least please stop arguing against known and established definitions like "the Law of Moses?"