The Gospel Verses Predestination

[glorydaz]

It is your responsibility. I have provided numerous verses and passages showing God's continuous choosing of His children from Genesis to Revelation. If you cannot present your biblical argument, I then consider you to have conceded me the argument.
Put up or shut up.

You mean you have cherry picked certain verses you claim say what you want them to.

Nothing new here.....We can do the same.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[MennoSota]

I think you read the Bible just like you do GM's posts. You read into what is NOT there. :chuckle:

Certainly he has put nothing into arguing his position. Thus I take his lack of effort as concession.

 

[MennoSota]

You mean you have cherry picked certain verses you claim say what you want them to.

Nothing new here.....We can do the same.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Now explain how each of those teach that God doesn't choose, predestine or elect His children among humanity.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

My dear friend,

Snark does not become you.

It doesn't become him, it's already him.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Certainly he has put nothing into arguing his position. Thus I take his lack of effort as concession.

It's far better to take it as a concession, then to take it as false. :think: I'll give you time to think about that.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Goodbye, GM.
I accept your admission of defeat.

Too bad you cannot accept your 'zero rep-power,' (zero credibility) as well.

 

[Robert Pate]

Calvinism like all other religions are under the judgment of God.

You cannot bypass Christ and his Gospel and be saved. God is zealous for his Son and his work of redemption that he has done for the salvation of the world, 1 John 2:2. All of humanity has been reconciled unto God by the doing and the dying of Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Salvation has been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. Unfortunately not everyone wants it. Calvinism is a diversion away from Christ and his Gospel. To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is to believe that God is unjust and is a sinner. To believe that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, is to believe that Jesus is a failure. This is why Calvinism is under the judgment of God. It is the faithless religion. No faith, no salvation.

 

[Rosenritter]

You need to read the entire text because you are cherry picking sentences from the text to create a phantom doctrine.
I am providing the entire text in hopes that you recognize your fallacious argument.

Denying that God has called all men to repentance is a fallacious argument.

Spoiler

John 3:16-18 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(That's how to use spoiler tags... if you must post whole chapters, that's a polite way to do it.)

 

[Rosenritter]

Israel was chosen of God (Elected) because of Abraham. Today, the 'Gospel of the Grace of God' and all it includes is open to individuals (not special groups of people) who hear the Gospel and are willing (by their own free-will) to place their faith in Christ as their Savior.

Israel was elected as a people, not as individuals. Individual people could be exiled from Israel and cast out into the wilderness. Israel was predestined for a certain role but no individual person was forced into that role.

Besides this, when Israel was a chosen people, this did not guarantee any ultimate salvation. They had a certain role to play, and they were chosen for this role. They were the physical line of the messiah, they were selected to carry the scriptures.

If Calvinism would be more careful with the reading of the scriptures, they would notice that the saints are likewise predestined for glory, but that the body of Christ is that of which we might become members, not some list drawn up "before time began" without regard of faith and repentance.

 

[Rosenritter]

So, only the nation called "Israel" has ever been chosen by God? In your opinion, God doesn't choose anyone or adopt them as His own?
Here's my request.
Provide scripture proving your position. Show us that God is passively sitting in heaven, waiting for the humans who are intelligent enough and rational enough to believe in God.
When you provide scripture, show me the context surrounding it so that I and everyone else can see what the writer is addressing as a whole.
Presently you have done nothing but shout a mantra of "Calvin is bad, Calvin is bad." Now is the time for you to put up or shut up.
Knock our socks off with scriptural passages showing how God doesn't get involved in choosing His children.

What was Israel chosen for Mennosota? If you believe Christ's words in the Old Testament, some of those Israelites will be cast with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Rosenritter]

By the way, MS your credibility rating is still at zero. You need to try a little bit harder.

OK, that's funny for a little bit because MS deserves some poking to counter his condescending demeanor, but I don't think that rating really counts for that much.

 

[MennoSota]

Denying that God has called all men to repentance is a fallacious argument.

Spoiler

John 3:16-18 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(That's how to use spoiler tags... if you must post whole chapters, that's a polite way to do it.)

Here's GregoryN's free-will response.

In Universalism you're saved only when you receive the salvation of the Savior. Until then the lost postmortem rot in hell. Whenever you choose to be saved, it will be your choice.

Your view is similar.

 

[MennoSota]

Israel was elected as a people, not as individuals. Individual people could be exiled from Israel and cast out into the wilderness. Israel was predestined for a certain role but no individual person was forced into that role.

Besides this, when Israel was a chosen people, this did not guarantee any ultimate salvation. They had a certain role to play, and they were chosen for this role. They were the physical line of the messiah, they were selected to carry the scriptures.

If Calvinism would be more careful with the reading of the scriptures, they would notice that the saints are likewise predestined for glory, but that the body of Christ is that of which we might become members, not some list drawn up "before time began" without regard of faith and repentance.

Really, they were chosen as a people? You want to tell that to Abraham and later to Jacob (Israel) as well as Esau?
We Christians are told that we are the people under the promise. We are the Israel of God. Read your Bible some time!

 

[MennoSota]

What was Israel chosen for Mennosota? If you believe Christ's words in the Old Testament, some of those Israelites will be cast with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jacob was chosen as a person under the promise, as a child of Abraham. Esau was not chosen, even though Esau was the first born who should get the inheritance of Abraham. God rejected Esau.
Many people in the nation of Israel were not people of the promise. Read your Bible.

 

[Rosenritter]

Here's GregoryN's free-will response.

Your view is similar.

Your view is much the same by that measure as well. Do you deny that there is such a thing as salvation? Or a Savior? or that hell reduces our mortal frame to rot? But if you deny all these things I will accept that your view is entirely different.

 

[Rosenritter]

Really, they were chosen as a people? You want to tell that to Abraham and later to Jacob (Israel) as well as Esau?
We Christians are told that we are the people under the promise. We are the Israel of God. Read your Bible some time!

I realize that this may not be in your bible, so please excuse me as I quote from the apocryphal book of Luke:

Luke 13:27-30 KJV
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(29) And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
(30) And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Those Pharisees were of the nation of Israel, descendants of Abraham, children of Jacob, of that chosen people. If we can consider the words of recorded in Luke, apparently being chosen didn't mean that they were locked into salvation. But then again, what would I know? I don't read the bible.

 

[ttruscott]

You want to believe that God is a sinner like you. You also want to believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born, making him unjust.

IF, as PCE theology insists, people existed before the creation of the physical universe (and the foundation of the earth) AND at that time chose to put their faith in the idea that YHWH was a liar and a false god, thus sinning the unforgivable sin so they were condemned on the spot, then the predestination of their lives before they were sown into the world to fulfill their own free will decision to go to hell rather than to marry HIM and live with HIM in the heavenly experience is indeed JUST and perfectly righteous.

PCE theology contends
- we all chose our own eternal FATE
- GOD predestined and predetermined our LIVES to fulfill our choice of our fate.

 

[MennoSota]

Your view is much the same by that measure as well. Do you deny that there is such a thing as salvation? Or a Savior? or that hell reduces our mortal frame to rot? But if you deny all these things I will accept that your view is entirely different.

The Bible teaches that:
1) God adopts wicked sinners and justifies them by Christ's atoning sacrifice for their sins. (Do you call this salvation? I call it salvation.)
2) Jesus adopts/saves every person the Father has given Him. He will never leave them nor forsake them. He does not save those whom the Father has not chosen to save.
3) Those whom God has justly condemned to hell will eternally be separated from God. They will not rot or be annihilated. They are eternally apart from God. Those whom God has chosen to redeem by Christ's atoning sacrifice will spend eternity in the presence of God solely because they are found in Christ. There is nothing good in the Christian's nature. Only Jesus is holy and it is Jesus holy sacrifice that is our propitiation before God.
From reading your posts, I suspect you differ.

 

[MennoSota]

I realize that this may not be in your bible, so please excuse me as I quote from the apocryphal book of Luke:

Luke 13:27-30 KJV
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(29) And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
(30) And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Those Pharisees were of the nation of Israel, descendants of Abraham, children of Jacob, of that chosen people. If we can consider the words of recorded in Luke, apparently being chosen didn't mean that they were locked into salvation. But then again, what would I know? I don't read the bible.

Those Pharisees were not children of the promise. Read Romans 9 and get back to us.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Bible teaches that:
1) God adopts wicked sinners and justifies them by Christ's atoning sacrifice for their sins. (Do you call this salvation? I call it salvation.)
2) Jesus adopts/saves every person the Father has given Him. He will never leave them nor forsake them. He does not save those whom the Father has not chosen to save.
3) Those whom God has justly condemned to hell will eternally be separated from God. They will not rot or be annihilated. They are eternally apart from God. Those whom God has chosen to redeem by Christ's atoning sacrifice will spend eternity in the presence of God solely because they are found in Christ. There is nothing good in the Christian's nature. Only Jesus is holy and it is Jesus holy sacrifice that is our propitiation before God.
From reading your posts, I suspect you differ.

You just can't stay away from the EXTREME influence of John Calvin, can ya?