glorydaz
Well-known member
I can just see him standing before the Great White Throne arguing with the LORD of Lords...... as he's being hauled off into outer darkness, "You said you died for all".
What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
I can just see him standing before the Great White Throne arguing with the LORD of Lords...... as he's being hauled off into outer darkness, "You said you died for all".
glorydaz
Well-known member
Talk about false premises, you should check out the one you're trying to push off on us. :chuckle:
The Gospel of PEACE is the Good News, and one must accept that peace before he can be saved.
Be ye reconciled. That is the Gospel. No one can access the blood of Jesus Christ unless they are first reconciled.
You want to claim that this great Gift of eternal life is given to all men. Nope, that's not what the Gospel tells us. You'd best toss your theology hat in the ring and go home.
Well, now I can see why you aren't saved. You deny THE LORD Jesus Christ is God. :nono:
NOPE, all men need to know that the Gift of eternal life there for the taking. It isn't shoved down the throats of those who refuse to believe in their Lord God and Saviour.
Lon
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
Those who believe....sons or adopted sons.
Might be a little too broad an answer.
Believed what?
Can it be Paul's gospel ?, because I'm thinking some were saved as believing sons before Paul's gospel came along; not to mention this age of Paul's gospel will end and folks will still be able to be saved as believing sons.
In the OT law, it seems as though a kinsman redeemer had to have the same family connection as the one he was redeeming.
It might be worth looking into the kinsman redeemer a little further to see all the functions he was allowed to carry out.
And if it all had to do with any and all that believe the same, or if it had to do with genealogical ties.
(I might do that. If for nothing else than for me to conclude just how closely one had to be related in order to qualify as a kinsman redeemer.)
The point that keeps sticking in my head through this conversation is ...................
Who were they being redeemed/purchased back from?
Or to ask another way ...... Who snatched them away from GOD that GOD had to pay a price to him to purchase them back?
Who is Christ paying when He redeems (not who is He paying for, but who is He paying)?
Ask Mr. Religion
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Two Charts on Predestination by Bunyan and Perkins
Two Charts on Predestination by Bunyan and Perkins
Here are two nice charts (visual theology) depicting Bunyan's [1628–1688] (left chart) and Perkins's [1558–1602] (right chart) views of Predestination. Who knew these Reformation types were doing Powerpoint before computers came along!
It will become obvious that both men have the same views of the doctrine of efficacious grace, necessary because of the state of fallen man:
Magnify the charts in your computer viewer to see the details.
Perkins described his chart as The Golden Chain of Redemption.
Bunyan titled his chart A Map Shewing the Order and Causes of Salvation and Damnation.
Both “charts” appear to have the same goal—to give a pictorial representation of how God works in relation to salvation and damnation.
In Perkins’s chart, every aspect of the application of salvation is tied in to a central spine representing Christ in terms of the various clauses of the Apostles’ Creed.
In Bunyan’s chart, however, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are portrayed as the fountainhead of salvation. Everything flows from them. But Bunyan’s map has no Christ-spine. Certainly the Trinity is seen as the original source and cause of salvation. But the various aspects of salvation applied are related to each other, not directly to Christ. To use Perkins’s metaphor, it is as if the links in the chain are joined one to another but are remotely connected to Christ himself only as their original link and first cause.
These charts represent two different configurations of how the gospel works. In the case of Perkins’s Golden Chain the central significance of Christ and union with him is obvious; in Bunyan’s chart this is not so. In Perkins every spiritual blessing is related to Christ; benefits are never separated or abstracted from the Benefactor. In Bunyan’s map, in fact they are.
If this mode of thinking permeates our approach to gospel preaching, the focus inevitably shifts to abstracted and discrete blessings, and then to the question of how we receive them, and thus ultimately to the issue: “Under or through what conditions can these blessings become mine?” The tendency is to turn me inward. But the warrant for justifying faith in Christ does not lie within. To think this was precisely the mistake of the young Luther. For this reason we are instructed to seek his predestination “in the wounds of Christ” to discover that the warrant for the gospel is without, not within.
Slowly this way of thinking about the ordo salutis (order of salvation) may drift into what is sometimes referred to as “the steps of salvation” in which a quasi-chronological order of experience precedes actual faith. This can become an eerie echo of the medieval ordo salutis. In due course, since these steps follow one another, the completion of one step must precede the commencement of the next one. And precisely there the question arises, How much conviction of sin, or sorrow for sin, or turning away from sin is required before the next step or phase can begin?
HT: The above is discussed in much more detail in Ferguson's fine book related to the Marrow Controversy:
https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Christ-Antinomianism-Assurance-Why-Controversy-ebook/dp/B01AIM65CQ
Enjoy.
AMR
Two Charts on Predestination by Bunyan and Perkins
Here are two nice charts (visual theology) depicting Bunyan's [1628–1688] (left chart) and Perkins's [1558–1602] (right chart) views of Predestination. Who knew these Reformation types were doing Powerpoint before computers came along!
It will become obvious that both men have the same views of the doctrine of efficacious grace, necessary because of the state of fallen man:
Man is born dead in sin (cf. Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13), with his mind and heart corrupted (Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 8:7–8; 1 Cor. 2:14). He is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:20; Titus 3:3) and therefore unable to repent and come to God (Jer. 13:23; Matt. 7:18; John 6:44, 65). Because of this, man must be born again (John 3:5–7). Those whom God elected and for whom Christ died are brought to life by the Holy Spirit (John 1:12–13; 3:3–8; 5:21; Eph. 2:1, 5; Titus 3:5). God gives them faith and repentance (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 13:48; Eph. 2:8–9; Phil. 1:29; 2 Tim. 2:25–26), and they are justified.
Magnify the charts in your computer viewer to see the details.
Perkins described his chart as The Golden Chain of Redemption.
Bunyan titled his chart A Map Shewing the Order and Causes of Salvation and Damnation.
Both “charts” appear to have the same goal—to give a pictorial representation of how God works in relation to salvation and damnation.
In Perkins’s chart, every aspect of the application of salvation is tied in to a central spine representing Christ in terms of the various clauses of the Apostles’ Creed.
In Bunyan’s chart, however, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are portrayed as the fountainhead of salvation. Everything flows from them. But Bunyan’s map has no Christ-spine. Certainly the Trinity is seen as the original source and cause of salvation. But the various aspects of salvation applied are related to each other, not directly to Christ. To use Perkins’s metaphor, it is as if the links in the chain are joined one to another but are remotely connected to Christ himself only as their original link and first cause.
These charts represent two different configurations of how the gospel works. In the case of Perkins’s Golden Chain the central significance of Christ and union with him is obvious; in Bunyan’s chart this is not so. In Perkins every spiritual blessing is related to Christ; benefits are never separated or abstracted from the Benefactor. In Bunyan’s map, in fact they are.
If this mode of thinking permeates our approach to gospel preaching, the focus inevitably shifts to abstracted and discrete blessings, and then to the question of how we receive them, and thus ultimately to the issue: “Under or through what conditions can these blessings become mine?” The tendency is to turn me inward. But the warrant for justifying faith in Christ does not lie within. To think this was precisely the mistake of the young Luther. For this reason we are instructed to seek his predestination “in the wounds of Christ” to discover that the warrant for the gospel is without, not within.
Slowly this way of thinking about the ordo salutis (order of salvation) may drift into what is sometimes referred to as “the steps of salvation” in which a quasi-chronological order of experience precedes actual faith. This can become an eerie echo of the medieval ordo salutis. In due course, since these steps follow one another, the completion of one step must precede the commencement of the next one. And precisely there the question arises, How much conviction of sin, or sorrow for sin, or turning away from sin is required before the next step or phase can begin?
HT: The above is discussed in much more detail in Ferguson's fine book related to the Marrow Controversy:
https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Christ-Antinomianism-Assurance-Why-Controversy-ebook/dp/B01AIM65CQ
Enjoy.
AMR
glorydaz
Well-known member
I think it's as simple as Faith. Those who believe.
Good idea for a thread. Do it. :thumb:
I just can't see God paying satan for anything. :idunno:
Rather, if he redeemed us from the curse of the law, then, again, it's believers who are delivered from the law.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
And we know Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.
Plus, we still see God pleading with man to be reconciled. If all men were redeemed by His death, that would not be the case, right?
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Nang
TOL Subscriber
"Connection" being a named family HEIR or just a genetic relation?
The curse against the sins of Satan and those he kidnapped through Adam, was the sentence of death. It was God's judgment, that only God could satisfy and pardon and reverse.
It was God's justice that needed to be satisfied . . . not Satan's crime.
Jesus Christ paid the Godly price exacted against the sin of His creatures.
Redemption is all God's work, producing all good cause and effect; according to His sovereign will and good purposes, alone.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Lon
Well-known member
It doesn't matter in the long and short. When I was young, it was 'all men' and everyone in my community knew it. It still did not produce all being saved. The guy that said "Okay, Christ died for me, I'm going my own way" didn't care one way or the other whether the Lord Jesus Christ did or didn't. It made no difference in his/her life. On the flip-side, I didn't really worry about that. All that I knew was that I should need grace and where it was from. All who thirst will find what they need or die of thirst. Here would be the real and ONLY travesty: That I want salvation, but He didn't die for me so I can't have it. Matthew 7:21-23; 25:31-46 That guy doesn't exist.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
A few years ago I was roofing a man's house.
He told me an interesting event he witnessed.
His dad was on his death bed.
He and his mother watched his dad sit up and shake his fist in the air.
His mother said, "they just told him what an ******* he is."
A minute later his dad was smiling.
His mother said," they just told him he's accepted anyhow."
Then his dad died.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
glorydaz
Well-known member
:chuckle: Good thing we aren't judged on how nice we are, isn't it?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Jesus Christ is not God?
How could the justice of God ever be accomplished, except by God?
How could mere sinners ever be redeemed, by any creatures held in bondage to the creature, Satan?
No . . God Himself, in and through the representative and sacrificial body of Jesus the Christ, paid and satisfied HIS justice for the sins of His elect and named heirs; His very spiritual church and everlasting body; the beneficiaries of His last will and Testament of Grace. Hebrews 6:13-20; 9:16-28
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
By His Son whom He sent.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
:cheers: