Arianism.

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Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Very frequently in the NT God is “the GOD,” that is
the one and only God of true belief as distinct from other
pagan gods which always threaten to deceive us.
Some today in desperation are reviving a completely
false understanding of plurality in YHVH, because
Genesis 19:24 reads that “YHVH rained brimstone from
YHVH in heaven.” But they did not notice that “Solomon
gathered the people to King Solomon” in 1 Kings 8:1.
Two Solomons? Obviously not. These are special
Hebrew idioms and easily explained as suchPeople who clutch at these anomalies forget that the
One God of Israel is described by singular personal
pronouns thousands upon thousands of times. You
learned in high school (we hope!) that a singular personal
pronoun refers to a single person. If you learn of someone
who is I, ME, THEE, THOU, HIM, MYSELF,
THYSELF, HIMSELF — can you concede the simple
fact that God is a single Person?
Unfortunately your church probably gathers under
the strange banner of a GOD who is “three in one.” This
teaching has been thought to be quite false to Jesus and
Scripture by thousands of competent scholars and by 5
American Presidents — and by Sir Isaac Newton who
spoke of the West’s strange cult of “three gods.” Newton
was deeply troubled by this non-biblical concept of God.
John Milton, the British poet, and John Locke the
philosopher were adamantly against the idea of a triune
God. Others died at the hands of a cruel church for
refusing to believe that the God of Scripture is triune.
Michael Servetus was murdered by John Calvin over this
issue.
Counting how many God is in the Bible is in no way
difficult. We are to rejoice and relax in the wonderfully
sound and health-giving truth that as Jesus said “The
LORD our GOD is one LORD” (the Greek of Mark
12:29, reflecting the LXX of Deut. 6:4). Jesus upbraided
Jews of his time for failing to believe Moses. If they
would not receive the words of Moses predicting the
Messiah, how would they believe in the Messiah who had
come? (John 5:46).
One Lord is not two Lords. Jesus declared his firm
confession of the One God of Israel (Mark 12:29), and
then as if to anticipate objections Jesus went on
immediately to discuss Psalm 110:1, where there are two
lords. It is hardly a matter of higher learning or advanced
mathematics to see that if “the LORD our God is one
LORD” (as Jesus had just said, in agreement with a
friendly unitarian Jew), then the second lord of Psalm
110:1 cannot also be GOD, making two Lord Gods! Then
note (and Strong’s Concordance alas hides this from you)
that the second lord, “my lord” (adoni) of Psalm 110:1 is
never the title of Deity, but always the title of a superior
who is not GOD. The capital letter in your Bible on the
second lord of Psalm 110:1 is false and misleading. It
should read “lord,” not “Lord”! A capitalized Lord
regularly translates the Hebrew ADONAI (the Lord God,
450 times) and the second lord of the psalm Jesus quoted
to silence all objectors is not Adonai! It is adoni, my lord.
ADONI occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Jesus, our teacher and lord (John 13:13), said in
Mark 12:29, “The LORD our GOD is one LORD.” This
should settle all doubts once and for all, that Jesus never,
ever disturbed the central, core principle of all true
religion that God is one single LORD. Tell your Jewish
friends and your Muslim friends, and very gently even
your Christian friends who are likely to be puzzled if not
infuriated!
You might want to help them by pointing out that
even the famous reformer John Calvin said:
“Elohim as a proof text with the plural ending to
prove that God is plural appears to me to have little
solidity. I will not insist upon the word; but rather caution
readers to beware of violent glosses [comments] of this
kind. They think that they have testimony against the
Arians to prove the Deity of the Son and of the Spirit, but
in the meantime they involve themselves in the error of
Sabellius [Modalism or Oneness, represented by
‘Oneness Pentecostals’ today]…If we suppose three
persons to be here [Gen. 1.1] denoted, there will be no
distinction between them…For me it is sufficient that the
plural number expresses those powers which God
exercised in creating the world.”1
“The followers of Jesus could assume that Jesus, like
many other Jews of his day, would have regarded Deut.
6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18 as the ideal summation of the
Jewish law. Jesus was repeating a common Jewish
understanding of the law…The words ‘the Lord our God
is one Lord’ are the proper expression of Jesus’ piety.”2
Why, you might ask, then do not churchgoers pay
reverent attention to the command which Jesus calls the
most important of all commands? Because churches have
long since given up thinking of Jesus as their rabbi and
teacher — contrary to his own constant admonition that
we listen with rapt and concentrated attention to what he
taught! Not to listen to Jesus and obey him is the one fatal
error we humans cannot afford to make (John 3:36 —
believing Jesus leads to immortality and refusing to obey
him is a dangerous mistake!).
To persuade your friends, invite them to explain
Mark 12:29. Jesus agrees wholeheartedly with a Jewish
scholar, and we know that Jews were believers in God as
ONE single Divine Person, not a Trinity. Being exposed
to the words of Jesus in Mark 12:29 can produce the
necessary shock which enables believers to rethink! At
present, once one says “Jesus is GOD,” one is admitting
to belief in two who are GOD! This is not the
monotheism of the Bible.
The world of scholars today often treats the Bible as
an unreliable source! That is hard for many to grasp! But
the typical comment of scholars is that “we do not know
whether Jesus said a given saying reported in the NT. It
might be that the church made it up and put it back into
the mouth of Jesus to give the impression that Jesus said
it: but no one knows if Jesus really uttered these words!”
1 Calvin, Commentary on Genesis, trans., ed., John King.
2 Stephen Patterson, DD, The God of Jesus, p.

http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/1512.pdf
 
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Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Elohim, El, Yahweh are different names for the same one Person.

Furthermore: Ps. 83:13: “Let them know that Thou alone, whose name is Yahweh, art the Most High over all the earth.” Neh. 9:6: “Thou art Yahweh, thou alone. Thou has made the heavens, the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that is in it, the seas and all that is in them.” 2 Sam. 22:32: “For who is El but Yahweh? And who is a rock except our Elohim?” Isa. 43:10, 11: “You, Jacob, are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before Me no El was formed nor shall there be after Me, I, I am Yahweh, and besides Me there is no Savior.” Isa. 45:42: “For I am El and there is no other.” Ps. 18:31: “For who is Eloah [singular form of Elohim] but Yahweh? And who is a rock except our Elohim?” Ps. 114:7: “Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Eloah of Jacob.” Jer 10:10: “But Yahweh is the true Elohim, he is the living Elohim and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble and the nations will not be able to abide his indignation.”

Then consider this: Of the 4,400 occurrences of the world Elohim (God) or theos (Gk. God), not one of them can be shown to mean “The Triune God” or “The Biune God.” Never, in fact, in Scripture when men wrote about their God did they ever imagine a tripersonal or bipersonal God. Such a God is foreign to Scripture and to Jesus. Is it surprising then that the end-products of a theology of God-Family, of uniplural God(s) do not demonstrate the unity of the spirit to which the Bible directs and exhorts us?

We have the strange paradox in churches (speaking generally) that the most important of all doctrines that God is two or three is seldom if ever preached on. But if these strange concepts are challenged, then the full force of dogma comes into play and threats of excommunication and heresy go flying. When the detail of the argument for a Triune God emerges, the questioner is invited to believe that:

1) “Today” (“You are My Son: Today I have begotten you” — Ps. 2:7) means “In eternity you are My Son.” In this church-speak, which is at the root of all our problems, “today = in eternity.” How then could God say “today” if He meant “today”? God here is being muzzled and told what He can say and what not.

2) “Person” in Trinitarian definitions does not mean person. Beget does not mean beget, bring into existence. God is one ousia (essence or substance) existing in three hypostases (subsistencies).

The term ousia is never used of God in the Bible. Hypostasis is not used to describe Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

3) “I will be his Father” (II Sam. 7:14) really means “I have always been his Father.” Note how history is replaced by timelessness.

Augustine (On the Trinity): “Human learning is scanty and affords no terms to express it. It is therefore answered ‘three Persons,’ not as if that was to the purpose [had any meaning] but something must be said and we must not be silent” (De Trinitate, Bk 5, ch. 9). The same Augustine in his Homilies on John felt it necessary to tamper with the sacred text of John 17:3, declaring that Jesus had said: “This is eternal life: that they believe in You and Jesus Christ whom You sent, as the One True God.” Note the complete alteration here in the interests of squeezing the Messiah into the Godhead. Jesus in fact described the Father here as “the only one who is truly God.”

Professor Stuart of Yale and Andover (1780-1852), one of the most learned Trinitarians in the world, speaking of the definition of Person in the Trinity said: “I do not and cannot understand them. And to a definition I cannot consent, still less defend it, until I do understand what it signifies. I have no hesitation in saying that my mind is absolutely unable to elicit any distinct and certain ideas from any of the definitions of Person which I have ever examined.”

It is a relief to turn from this strange grammar and “church-speak” to some sound facts, from standard authorities:


http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/elohim.htm
 
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Lazy afternoon

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meshak said:
The Son is also God?
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Jesus, the seed of David, has been MADE both Lord (NOT YAHVEH)and Christ.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

LA
 
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Lazy afternoon

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1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 
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Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
meshak said:
But your OP in Arianism says Jesus is God.

It says the Son is God.
Click to expand...

Ho theos is The God, theos is just god.

It just means Heavenly authority, in this case the Highest Heavenly authority over the creation who is a man.

Hebrews 1:8 is like other verses in that just because the word “theos” (“GOD”) is used does not mean that it refers to the Father. It could easily be referring to “god” in the biblical sense that great men are called “god.” The Septuagint uses the word theos for God, but also for men in places like Psalm 82 where men represent God. The context must be the determining factor in deciding what “GOD” refers to. In this case, in Hebrews that we are studying, the context is clear. Throughout the entire context from Hebrews 1:1, Christ is seen to be lesser than God the Father. Therefore, the use of “theos” here should be translated “god.”
Click to expand...


Actually I just looked up earliest greek and it does not say O God either.

So strike that out altogether.

LA
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Evil.Eye. said:
I will say it over and over... Humanity was Blessed to have "Avi-'ad" Join with it, and thus, the familial implications are clear.

I do not count myself ELOHIM, and never will. You are theologically abusing "Typification". You are a demon's tool Daqq. I promised you I would take you to task. It's happening.

Jesus is God and Jesus is our Sin Bearer. You are about to have a little bit of light shined on you.
Click to expand...

Matthew 6

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great*is*that darkness!
 
meshak

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Lazy afternoon said:
Ho theos is The God, theos is just god.

It just means Heavenly authority, in this case the Highest Heavenly authority over the creation who is a man.




Actually I just looked up earliest greek and it does not say O God either.

So strike that out altogether.

LA
Click to expand...

I don't think Daqq will argue about that. That's what he has been claiming too.

thanks for clarifying.
 
meshak

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Jamie,

It seems you are tying to find the doctrines which version you like, just like your pro-military and "of the world" position.
 
meshak

meshak

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Banned
jamie said:
If he is a Spirit just like his father, then he is God.
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Nope.

that's why you need to read the Bible. You are trying to find the loopholes when you don't like the answers.

What you are doing is cherry picking.

You are not interested in the truth. If you are, you will not be doing what you are doing.
 
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